I have a choice of buying a used Logan 10x24 in very good condition with
change gears for about the same price as a new Grizzly G4000 9x19 with its
partial quick change gear box.
What would be your choice?
Tough call. I'm not too thrilled with under powered lathes like the Logan,
but I also don't know much about the Grizzly. The one obvious negative
about the Grizzly is it's smaller size, both in swing and center length.
I'm a bit curious about the statement "partial" quick change. Even the
finest of lathes often have additional change gears with them for chasing
unusual thread pitches. Are you implying the Grizzly has a partial quick
change because it has some extra gears?
Having worked as a machinist in industry, it's entirely possible my
expectations from machine tools would be far different from one that has no
commercial experience. A friend has an Atlas lathe that he bought new and
he's as happy with it as I would be with a Monarch EE.
One of the things that might help you make up your mind is how you intend to
use the machine, and how well each of them are equipped. It's quite hard
for one person to make decisions for another in this instance because of the
wide and varied perceptions folks have about what is important and what must
or must not be included with machines.
What ever you decide, just make sure you get a machine and start making
chips. I think you'll enjoy it, as most of us do.
A friend has an Atlas lathe that he bought new and he's as happy with it as I
would be with a Monarch EE
There's a place for everything.
My Logan 10x20 has English/metric thread chasing; my two Monarch 10EEs don't.
In fact, one 10EE has no thread chasing at all.
Among the better features of the newer (offshore) lathes is standardization on
D1-4 Camlock or larger spindles, and spindles which can accommodate at least 5C
collets and 1-1/4" material.
The Logan and Atlas lathes are usually limited to 1-1/2-8 workholding, and 3C
or 3AT collets and 3/4" material.
As Chinese lathes go the 9x19 group does not have a very good
poor compound mounting (apparently it flexes)
lack of back gears (low speed just isnt low enough.)
inability to cut its own spindle thread. (some stange metric thread
but the lathe has an english lead screw.)
no tumbler reverse (a pain to cut left hand threads.)
Yeah you can fix most or all of these problems (at considerable time
and expense) but if you are just starting out with lathes why buy
If the logan falls out for some reason or another you might consider
one of the Chinese 7x's ($300-$500) and using the leftover money
Thanks. In other words limited choices of pitch without changing gears.
That would be a nice feature for general machining where you might wish to
have different feed rates for roughing and finishing, even if it is somewhat
limiting where threading is concerned. It's something you probably would
learn to live with, but it would be difficult to downgrade form having the
quick change feature to not having it. Still a pretty tough call as far as
I'm concerned. Why don't you let us know where you land?
I'm shocked that you havent been attacked for mentioning Chinese lathes
here- there used to be a guy on this group who frothed at the mouth at the
very mention of the word- I stopped frequenting the group because of his and
a few other's racism- I just came back to get some info on and old South
Bend- this guy seems to have disappeared from the group.
My choice would be to keep looking for another lathe. But then I consider a
full quick change a near-essential feature of a lathe, at least if it is
your only lathe. I'm also partial to old domestic iron and am fond of
Clausing tools, so I'd be looking for one of those - probably a 5900-series
as that's about as big a lathe that can be fit into my shop without hiring
riggers. Logan and Rockwell made similar lathes that I'd probably be happy
with as well. Clausing and Logan still have factory support for at least
some parts - I'm not sure about Rockwell. Lots of other good used brands as
Lots of folks have been happy with the imports, though, and it really
depends on what type of work you want to do, how accurately you want to do
it, how easy it is to find used lathes in your area, and how long you are
willing to look for the "right" lathe. You can probably get your original
purchase price out of a used domestic lathe, but will almost certainly lose
money on an import. That's important to keep in mind if you think you might
OK I give up, which horrible malefactor racist
are we talking about here?
I think the pendulum has swung the other way,
I was waiting for the pile-on when one of the
posters enumerated the flaws of the grizzly
As for a logan being underpowered, those things
a) can have whatever size motor you put on them,
and b) use a flat belt, so anything over a hp
Because the options he listed did not include
"american pacemaker" or "monarch" or "pratt & whitney"
I think the logan would be better in this regard.
Harold, if you think the Logan is a stepdown from
your usual geared-head machine, just try the
The comment that the logan also has a tiny hole though
the spindle is dead on center. However I would wager
that the grizzly in question has about the same size
bore. So it's a draw there.
What small, inexensive lathe has a bore large enough
to accept 5C collets right in the spindle? That would
be a 10L southbend, and if the spindle bore were a
real issue for the OP then that is the machine I
would point him to. They can be had in the price
range between one and three thousand, depending on
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at yktvmv (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
I was happy with my craftsman 12x36. Now that I own a 11" rockwell, I
would not be happy going back to the craftsman. If I ever got to
use a Hardinge or Monarch, I probably wouldn't be happy with the
rockwell anymore either. Moral of the story is a homework assignment.
Sigh...its not racism when one comments on a group of machines that
tended to be pieces of shit. Its called calling a spade a spade.
If someone comments that a Fiat is a POS..that person hates Italians?
"This device is provided without warranty of any kind as to reliability,
accuracy, existence or otherwise or fitness for any particular purpose
and Bioalchemic Products specifically does not warrant, guarantee,
imply or make any representations as to its merchantability for any
particular purpose and furthermore shall have no liability for or
responsibility to you or any other person, entity or deity with respect
to any loss or damage whatsoever caused by this device or object or by
any attempts to destroy it by hammering it against a wall or dropping it
into a deep well or any other means whatsoever and moreover asserts
that you indicate your acceptance of this agreement or any other
agreement that may he substituted at any time by coming within
five miles of the product or observing it through large telescopes or
by any other means because you are such an easily cowed moron
who will happily accept arrogant and unilateral conditions on a piece
of highly priced garbage that you would not dream of accepting on a
bag of dog biscuits and is used solely at your own risk.'
I dont think you are the guy I remember, because he was rabidly anti Chinese
anything. Comments on the quality of any product should be done by those who
have at least used one at some time or another. I did have a FIAT 1200 one
time and it was actually a good quality car for the price and gave reliable
performance, but then again the little 850 Spyder was a real loser that
routinely rusted away in a sort of Fascist form of re-cycling. My personal
rule on this is to comment on what I know and keep quiet about what I heard.
One can hope!
I get the distinct impression that we're not talking about the same person
in each instance. The mention of "a few others" sort of gives that away.
I was under the impression that the Logan was a flat belt machine, but
wasn't sure, so I alluded to the limited power instead, knowing full well
that would be true, regardless of belt type. The point is that if you like
to take roughing cuts, these small machines simply are not up to the task.
It would border on the impossible for me to step back to machines like that.
Possible, certainly, but only kicking and screaming as I was forced that
direction. That is not to imply that others might not be happy with
theirs, an example of which I provided. I am fortunate to have a machine I
can use as I work, but understand all too well that not all are so
Man, that paints a pretty ugly picture of the Grizzly. Is it really
that bad? I have no experience from which to draw a conclusion. I've been
running my Graziano for so many years I've lost touch with other machines.
I'm also quite spoiled from the experience, I might add.
What that does for you is permit more intelligent machining. As you learn
the difference between roughing and finishing cuts, you'd certainly desire
to be able to take advantage of the options. Without a quick change, that is
not possible. Any benefit of changing feeds would be more than offset by
the time it takes to manually change gears. I fully agree, Mike.
I'm also partial to old domestic iron and am fond of
None of the above are really industrially rated machines, yet all off them
are found there and serve reasonably well. I spent almost 18 months running
a small Clausing (6") in a job shop turning out fine quality work for the
aero-space industry. They're certainly capable! Oh, yeah, that little
lathe had a quick change!
Accuracy is more in the hands of the operator than the machine unless the
machine is clearly just junk. The Clausing mentioned above had .0002"
spindle runout, but that didn't prevent tight tolerance work. Yes, it did
make it more difficult, but in the hands of one that is experienced, it's
amazing what you can coax out of a machine. I'm of the opinion that any
of them have the potential to yield decent work, but then I've never run one
of the Chinese machines to know for sure.
That is likely the most compelling reason for seeking a domestic machine.
The resale value of some machines, mill/drill, for example, can be pretty
poor. I sold my first Bridgeport for the same price I paid for it after
almost ten years of use, although by then it was only half the price of a
new one. Just goes to show that good machine tools, if not abused, don't
really lose much value. Buy the best you can afford, and try to avoid
buying rusted machines.
Photo of the grizzly 9" machine being discussed:
A discussion of the ten inch logan:
Bottom line is the logan will probably weigh in at about three
times the grizzly, and the difference is pure cast iron. Expecting
the 9" grizzly to go head to head with the logan would be the same
as matching your graziano against the logan. No constest.
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at yktvmv (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
Thanks, Jim. That pretty much says it all. One thing I've considered time
and again is what lathe would I buy if I didn't have my Graziano? To be
honest, there's nothing on the market today that comes close to the lathes
that were available just a few short years ago. For example, think of the
Mori-Seiki lathes, 17" for slightly over $7,000 when new (late 60's). They
are, at the least, on par with the tough old Axelson lathes that, in my
opinion, were better than the Monarch's, and I'm a died in the wool Monarch
I'm not convinced the change in the machine tool industry (perhaps better
described as the demise of same) is in the best interest of people like us.
Not everyone is interested in, nor can they afford, CNC. The fine quality
machines are slowly wearing out, so I see a bleak future for the younger
guys coming up. They simply won't have the options that used to be
That would have been pete albrecht. Seems as how when people admitted
that the chinese lathes had problems, and how to fix them quickly and
without any great expense, pete lost his reason for existance. pete's
experience with chinese lathes consisted only of spinning the dials in
the showroom and not realizing that adjusting backlash and gibe is
well within most peoples capability.
Far as lathes go, I"m trying to talk myself out of buying a MOnarch,
old, very old, I'm guessing 20 by 72 between centers. A line shaft
and steam engine and I'd be all set.
Did pick up a 9" SB model A, but someone backed over it with a
tractor. Maybe machine, maybe spare parts. Jury is still out.