Lathe Choice?

I have a choice of buying a used Logan 10x24 in very good condition with
change gears for about the same price as a new Grizzly G4000 9x19 with its
partial quick change gear box.
What would be your choice?
Reply to
Derek Hartzell
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Tough call. I'm not too thrilled with under powered lathes like the Logan, but I also don't know much about the Grizzly. The one obvious negative about the Grizzly is it's smaller size, both in swing and center length.
I'm a bit curious about the statement "partial" quick change. Even the finest of lathes often have additional change gears with them for chasing unusual thread pitches. Are you implying the Grizzly has a partial quick change because it has some extra gears?
Having worked as a machinist in industry, it's entirely possible my expectations from machine tools would be far different from one that has no commercial experience. A friend has an Atlas lathe that he bought new and he's as happy with it as I would be with a Monarch EE.
One of the things that might help you make up your mind is how you intend to use the machine, and how well each of them are equipped. It's quite hard for one person to make decisions for another in this instance because of the wide and varied perceptions folks have about what is important and what must or must not be included with machines.
What ever you decide, just make sure you get a machine and start making chips. I think you'll enjoy it, as most of us do.
Good luck!
Harold
Reply to
Harold & Susan Vordos
A friend has an Atlas lathe that he bought new and he's as happy with it as I would be with a Monarch EE
There's a place for everything.
My Logan 10x20 has English/metric thread chasing; my two Monarch 10EEs don't. In fact, one 10EE has no thread chasing at all.
Among the better features of the newer (offshore) lathes is standardization on D1-4 Camlock or larger spindles, and spindles which can accommodate at least 5C collets and 1-1/4" material.
The Logan and Atlas lathes are usually limited to 1-1/2-8 workholding, and 3C or 3AT collets and 3/4" material.
Choices, choices.
Reply to
Peter H.
The Grizzly has extra gears that seem to be used for many of the combinations of threads. It only has one quick change lever with 9 positions.
Reply to
Derek Hartzell
As Chinese lathes go the 9x19 group does not have a very good reputation.
Problems include: poor compound mounting (apparently it flexes) lack of back gears (low speed just isnt low enough.) inability to cut its own spindle thread. (some stange metric thread but the lathe has an english lead screw.) no tumbler reverse (a pain to cut left hand threads.)
Yeah you can fix most or all of these problems (at considerable time and expense) but if you are just starting out with lathes why buy problems?
If the logan falls out for some reason or another you might consider one of the Chinese 7x's ($300-$500) and using the leftover money for tooling. Regards Bob
Reply to
rjs
Thanks. In other words limited choices of pitch without changing gears. That would be a nice feature for general machining where you might wish to have different feed rates for roughing and finishing, even if it is somewhat limiting where threading is concerned. It's something you probably would learn to live with, but it would be difficult to downgrade form having the quick change feature to not having it. Still a pretty tough call as far as I'm concerned. Why don't you let us know where you land?
Harold
Reply to
Harold & Susan Vordos
I'm shocked that you havent been attacked for mentioning Chinese lathes here- there used to be a guy on this group who frothed at the mouth at the very mention of the word- I stopped frequenting the group because of his and a few other's racism- I just came back to get some info on and old South Bend- this guy seems to have disappeared from the group.
Reply to
turnitdown
My choice would be to keep looking for another lathe. But then I consider a full quick change a near-essential feature of a lathe, at least if it is your only lathe. I'm also partial to old domestic iron and am fond of Clausing tools, so I'd be looking for one of those - probably a 5900-series as that's about as big a lathe that can be fit into my shop without hiring riggers. Logan and Rockwell made similar lathes that I'd probably be happy with as well. Clausing and Logan still have factory support for at least some parts - I'm not sure about Rockwell. Lots of other good used brands as well.
Lots of folks have been happy with the imports, though, and it really depends on what type of work you want to do, how accurately you want to do it, how easy it is to find used lathes in your area, and how long you are willing to look for the "right" lathe. You can probably get your original purchase price out of a used domestic lathe, but will almost certainly lose money on an import. That's important to keep in mind if you think you might upgrade later.
Reply to
Mike Henry
OK I give up, which horrible malefactor racist are we talking about here?
I think the pendulum has swung the other way, I was waiting for the pile-on when one of the posters enumerated the flaws of the grizzly machine.
As for a logan being underpowered, those things a) can have whatever size motor you put on them, and b) use a flat belt, so anything over a hp is overkill.
Because the options he listed did not include "american pacemaker" or "monarch" or "pratt & whitney" I think the logan would be better in this regard.
Harold, if you think the Logan is a stepdown from your usual geared-head machine, just try the grizzly!
The comment that the logan also has a tiny hole though the spindle is dead on center. However I would wager that the grizzly in question has about the same size bore. So it's a draw there.
What small, inexensive lathe has a bore large enough to accept 5C collets right in the spindle? That would be a 10L southbend, and if the spindle bore were a real issue for the OP then that is the machine I would point him to. They can be had in the price range between one and three thousand, depending on condition.
Jim
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Reply to
jim rozen
I was happy with my craftsman 12x36. Now that I own a 11" rockwell, I would not be happy going back to the craftsman. If I ever got to use a Hardinge or Monarch, I probably wouldn't be happy with the rockwell anymore either. Moral of the story is a homework assignment.
Reply to
Charles A. Sherwood
Sigh...its not racism when one comments on a group of machines that tended to be pieces of shit. Its called calling a spade a spade.
If someone comments that a Fiat is a POS..that person hates Italians?
Get real.
Gunner
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Reply to
Gunner
I dont think you are the guy I remember, because he was rabidly anti Chinese anything. Comments on the quality of any product should be done by those who have at least used one at some time or another. I did have a FIAT 1200 one time and it was actually a good quality car for the price and gave reliable performance, but then again the little 850 Spyder was a real loser that routinely rusted away in a sort of Fascist form of re-cycling. My personal rule on this is to comment on what I know and keep quiet about what I heard.
Reply to
turnitdown
RISER
One can hope!
I get the distinct impression that we're not talking about the same person in each instance. The mention of "a few others" sort of gives that away.
snip--
I was under the impression that the Logan was a flat belt machine, but wasn't sure, so I alluded to the limited power instead, knowing full well that would be true, regardless of belt type. The point is that if you like to take roughing cuts, these small machines simply are not up to the task. It would border on the impossible for me to step back to machines like that. Possible, certainly, but only kicking and screaming as I was forced that direction. That is not to imply that others might not be happy with theirs, an example of which I provided. I am fortunate to have a machine I can use as I work, but understand all too well that not all are so fortunate.
Man, that paints a pretty ugly picture of the Grizzly. Is it really that bad? I have no experience from which to draw a conclusion. I've been running my Graziano for so many years I've lost touch with other machines. I'm also quite spoiled from the experience, I might add.
Harold
Reply to
Harold & Susan Vordos
My Sis had a fiat... Thing was a lemon. Trust me , I've been in BFE with a FU fiat.
Reply to
Sunworshiper
What that does for you is permit more intelligent machining. As you learn the difference between roughing and finishing cuts, you'd certainly desire to be able to take advantage of the options. Without a quick change, that is not possible. Any benefit of changing feeds would be more than offset by the time it takes to manually change gears. I fully agree, Mike.
I'm also partial to old domestic iron and am fond of
5900-series
None of the above are really industrially rated machines, yet all off them are found there and serve reasonably well. I spent almost 18 months running a small Clausing (6") in a job shop turning out fine quality work for the aero-space industry. They're certainly capable! Oh, yeah, that little lathe had a quick change!
Accuracy is more in the hands of the operator than the machine unless the machine is clearly just junk. The Clausing mentioned above had .0002" spindle runout, but that didn't prevent tight tolerance work. Yes, it did make it more difficult, but in the hands of one that is experienced, it's amazing what you can coax out of a machine. I'm of the opinion that any of them have the potential to yield decent work, but then I've never run one of the Chinese machines to know for sure.
That is likely the most compelling reason for seeking a domestic machine. The resale value of some machines, mill/drill, for example, can be pretty poor. I sold my first Bridgeport for the same price I paid for it after almost ten years of use, although by then it was only half the price of a new one. Just goes to show that good machine tools, if not abused, don't really lose much value. Buy the best you can afford, and try to avoid buying rusted machines.
Harold
Reply to
Harold & Susan Vordos
Photo of the grizzly 9" machine being discussed:
A discussion of the ten inch logan:
Bottom line is the logan will probably weigh in at about three times the grizzly, and the difference is pure cast iron. Expecting the 9" grizzly to go head to head with the logan would be the same as matching your graziano against the logan. No constest.
Jim
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Reply to
jim rozen
Thanks, Jim. That pretty much says it all. One thing I've considered time and again is what lathe would I buy if I didn't have my Graziano? To be honest, there's nothing on the market today that comes close to the lathes that were available just a few short years ago. For example, think of the Mori-Seiki lathes, 17" for slightly over $7,000 when new (late 60's). They are, at the least, on par with the tough old Axelson lathes that, in my opinion, were better than the Monarch's, and I'm a died in the wool Monarch man.
I'm not convinced the change in the machine tool industry (perhaps better described as the demise of same) is in the best interest of people like us. Not everyone is interested in, nor can they afford, CNC. The fine quality machines are slowly wearing out, so I see a bleak future for the younger guys coming up. They simply won't have the options that used to be available.
Harold
Reply to
Harold & Susan Vordos
I just got a flyer from Harbor Freight. They have their 9" x 20" on sale at $599. Paul
Reply to
6e70
That would have been pete albrecht. Seems as how when people admitted that the chinese lathes had problems, and how to fix them quickly and without any great expense, pete lost his reason for existance. pete's experience with chinese lathes consisted only of spinning the dials in the showroom and not realizing that adjusting backlash and gibe is well within most peoples capability.
Far as lathes go, I"m trying to talk myself out of buying a MOnarch, old, very old, I'm guessing 20 by 72 between centers. A line shaft and steam engine and I'd be all set.
Did pick up a 9" SB model A, but someone backed over it with a tractor. Maybe machine, maybe spare parts. Jury is still out.
Reply to
Lennie the Lurker

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