OT-Credible alternatives for students

A small but influential group of economists and educators is pushing another pathway: for some students, no college at all. It's time, they say, to develop credible alternatives for students unlikely to be successful pursuing a higher degree, or who may not be ready to do so.

Whether everyone in college needs to be there is not a new question; the subject has been hashed out in books and dissertations for years. But the economic crisis has sharpened that focus, as financially struggling states cut aid to higher education.

Among those calling for such alternatives are the economists Richard K. Vedder of Ohio University and Robert I. Lerman of American University, the political scientist Charles Murray, and James E. Rosenbaum, an education professor at Northwestern. They would steer some students toward intensive, short-term vocational and career training, through expanded high school programs and corporate apprenticeships.

College degrees are simply not necessary for many jobs. Of the 30 jobs projected to grow at the fastest rate over the next decade in the United States, only seven typically require a bachelor's degree, according to the Bureau of Labor Statistics.

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The US Labor Dept statistics actuallly give a very different picture than what educators and elected officials say publicly. Those stats show the greatest number of middle-paying jobs will go to those with on the job experience, an associate's degree, or some combination of both. Surely if you intend on practicing law or medicine you do need a full degree and then some. But has anyone looked at the pay scale of auto mechanics, plumbers, electricians? The vast majority of jobs in the "green jobs" category need more on the job experience than formal education - aren't these the "jobs of the future"?

At a time when many people can't pay the rent, why are we still shoving them into institutions whose only guarantee is a minimum of a decade deep in debt? Why is there no honesty about the fact we have too many degreed young people sleeping on their parents couches, or joining the Army because otherwise they haven't got a pot to you-know-what in? Somewhere along the way, formal higher education took a very wrong turn and I for one can't recommend it unless one has a very clear & specific vision of a particular job in a particular white-collar profession. But before I wish them luck, I'll tell them to call their mom and ask for their old room back.

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Perhaps the time has come when people that like to work

with thier hands and minds wont be viewed in a negative light

by educators.

Best Regards

Tom.

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Reply to
Azotic
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Ever hear of voc-techs and trade schools???

I learned electronics from the Army.

jsw

Reply to
Jim Wilkins

Ever hear of voc-techs and trade schools???

I learned electronics from the Army.

jsw

Vo-tech courses were once offered in public schools. The current trend is to steer kids into college wether they want go or not. I believe this is one reason we have such a high number of high school drop outs. 51% hear in las vegas last time i checked.

Best Regards Tom.

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Reply to
Azotic

Near me, we have a community college and many vocational classes are offered here. I even took some, such as two welding classes.

i
Reply to
Ignoramus7163

Great piece, Tom. Couldn't agree more. I, for one, am very tired of seeing my taxes go up and up to offset loans for those that are destined to be professional dead beats.

Bob (degreed but working) Swinney

Whether everyone in college needs to be there is not a new question; the subject has been hashed out in books and dissertations for years. But the economic crisis has sharpened that focus, as financially struggling states cut aid to higher education.

Among those calling for such alternatives are the economists Richard K. Vedder of Ohio University and Robert I. Lerman of American University, the political scientist Charles Murray, and James E. Rosenbaum, an education professor at Northwestern. They would steer some students toward intensive, short-term vocational and career training, through expanded high school programs and corporate apprenticeships.

College degrees are simply not necessary for many jobs. Of the 30 jobs projected to grow at the fastest rate over the next decade in the United States, only seven typically require a bachelor's degree, according to the Bureau of Labor Statistics.

formatting link

The US Labor Dept statistics actuallly give a very different picture than what educators and elected officials say publicly. Those stats show the greatest number of middle-paying jobs will go to those with on the job experience, an associate's degree, or some combination of both. Surely if you intend on practicing law or medicine you do need a full degree and then some. But has anyone looked at the pay scale of auto mechanics, plumbers, electricians? The vast majority of jobs in the "green jobs" category need more on the job experience than formal education - aren't these the "jobs of the future"?

At a time when many people can't pay the rent, why are we still shoving them into institutions whose only guarantee is a minimum of a decade deep in debt? Why is there no honesty about the fact we have too many degreed young people sleeping on their parents couches, or joining the Army because otherwise they haven't got a pot to you-know-what in? Somewhere along the way, formal higher education took a very wrong turn and I for one can't recommend it unless one has a very clear & specific vision of a particular job in a particular white-collar profession. But before I wish them luck, I'll tell them to call their mom and ask for their old room back.

formatting link

Perhaps the time has come when people that like to work

with thier hands and minds wont be viewed in a negative light

by educators.

Best Regards

Tom.

--- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: snipped-for-privacy@netfront.net ---

Reply to
Robert Swinney

On Tue, 18 May 2010 02:05:18 -0700, "Azotic" wrote the following:

Good article. Methinks his 3rd rail comment is right. He steering people away from the money machine that is known as "our college system" and the upper echelon edudrone leaders there don't like it.

I just did a quote to partition off a large master bedroom so the parents' new house can accept their daughter and her new baby back into the fold. Unfortunately, I didn't hear any mention of the father of the child.

They will continue if people listen to David Leonhardt, Tom. He wants all the best and brightest (real meaning there) to go to college while the less intelligent underdogs learn manual labor skills. He's part of our blue collar reputation problem, and he wants it to stay, evidently.

Then Schapiro said "It?s not just about the economic return," he said. "Some college, whether you complete it or not, contributes to aesthetic appreciation, better health and better voting behavior."

WTF is _that_ all about? I'd like to see his stat source. "Go to college or: you won't be able to appreciate fART, you'll always be sick, and you'll never know how to vote." ?!?

-- Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence. -- John Adams, December 1770 'Argument in Defense of the Soldiers in the Boston Massacre Trials'

Reply to
Larry Jaques

The sad thing this is simply a re-run of the debate that occurred about 100 years ago that resulted in the existing (vanishing) vocational-educational system, confirming Harry Truman's pithy observation "the only thing new in the world is the history you haven't read yet."

Snedden, Prosser, Dewey, Richards and Willard were some of the names of that time. If you want more information google on "social efficiency."

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The ferment of that time was apparently due in large part to the stress the transition from an agricultural based economy to an industrial based economy was putting on the US society/culture/economic system. We appear to be undergoing yet another transition with comparable stress [possibly higher because of the speed with which the changes are occurring] with a shift to a post-industrial consumer/service/knowledge based economy compounded by massive uncontrolled economic refugee immigration and gross economic restructuring/globalization.

IMNSHO -- "Education" by its nature tends to be traditional, conservative, even reactionary, and unable to respond [quickly enough] to changes in the society/culture/economy in which it is embedded, and what was a tolerable, even optimal "program" can quickly become dysfunctional, even before it can be fully implemented across the educational system.

Reply to
F. George McDuffee

Here you have uncovered part of the problem. The Army doesn't do that anymore. "Electronics" training means being made an appliance operator. There isn't time to do more. My concern my son works for has been trying to hire techs. Engineers can be found, techs are scarce.

Kevin Gallimore

Reply to
axolotl

Larry Jaques wrote in news: snipped-for-privacy@4ax.com:

No, you'll vote either Libertarian or Republican...

After all, you won't have been indoctrinated with the belief that the Democ-Rat Party knows what's best for you and yours...

Reply to
Eregon

taxes go up and up

Are you talking about polysci students?

Wes

Reply to
Wes

Wes wrote in news:j9DIn.285913$ snipped-for-privacy@en-nntp-08.dc.easynews.com:

Nupe: "Administrators" and "Educators".

"Administrators" can administrate anything because they know how to administrate - according to Administrators, that is...

"Educators" are taught HOW to teach but not WHAT to teach and rarely learn that WHAT they need to teach is not a subject but students...

Reply to
Eregon

I'm right here.

jsw

Reply to
Jim Wilkins

They're not taught how to teach. At most, they'll have one or two courses in that. Their field experience, for seniors, is supposed to be most of it.

My wife just got her master's in special ed. That program is supposed to be

*especially* about how to teach. It was mostly background theory, not hands-on teaching.
Reply to
Ed Huntress

Want a job on the Cape? I'd be happy to make a connection.

Kevin Gallimore

Reply to
axolotl

I have a bunch of teachers in the core family and the in-laws family. One was Sec of Edu for Michigan a while back. (I never met him but I know his brother well)

When a chemist or a mechanical engineer can not teach a K-12 class in the area of tehir degree or experience because they don't have a certificate, something is way wrong. In the college setting, anyone can teach. The choice being up to the college and its desire to keep its standards up.

Wes

-- "Additionally as a security officer, I carry a gun to protect government officials but my life isn't worth protecting at home in their eyes." Dick Anthony Heller

Reply to
Wes

First, good for her to try to help our fellow human beings with learning issues. It would be impossible for me to be pro life without being all for helping those that just didn't come out well learn to manage in our society.

Theory without hands on application of said theory sounds like quackery to me. Would you want a doctor that learned the theory on how to do a radical procedure or one that learned theory and practiced in actuality with supervision?

Wes

Reply to
Wes

"How to teach" is one of the critical issues in education. ERIC has some good journal articles on it. We just don't teach teachers how to teach, and it's a big problem. (My wife had been teaching the handicapped for 12 years before getting her master's degree, so she's already been through the experience of learning it.)

Why that is, I don't know. It has something to do with the theories behind teaching that we've followed for most of the last century. There are ways to teach how to teach, but there's little agreement about them.

Iggy probably will confirm this: Russian and Asian Indian math teachers run circles around our math teachers. They really know how to teach it. We'd better learn.

Reply to
Ed Huntress

Once again, good on her. Is it an illusion or did schools work better 50 years ago?

If we can't learn, there is the H1B visa. I have no problem with potential immigrants with skills we need. We just don't need landscapers, roofers and carpenters, we have Americans that can do that if the job pays a wage you can live on.

Wes

Reply to
Wes

"Ed Huntress" wrote in news:4bf30a2a$0$5010$ snipped-for-privacy@cv.net:

Ya gotta remember that the college "educators" learned what they know in the same classes that they now "teach".

The theory of HOW to teach - mainly about how to keep their attention.

Reply to
Eregon

========== "Schools" are not monolithic organizations.

It is well to remember that 50 years ago most schools offered at least two "tracks." Academic for those that intended [or their parents intended them] to go to college, and a vocational/applied track with enough hands-on practical application classes to keep the students engaged. If the student had "extensive outside interests" and was a disruptive influence, they were frequently encouraged to seek opportunity elsewhere by "dropping out."

Thus schools did work better 50 years ago if you mean they tended to produce better prepared graduates. Of course, they also tended to separate a higher number/fraction of people that were 14 and up that were not students but attendees, and "special needs students" never got in the school house door in the first place, thus their limited resources were concentrated on the higher potential individuals.

Gainful employment for high school dropouts/early leavers has now largely disappeared, by law, public schools must accommodate a far larger fraction [virtually all] of the

6-18 year old population, and many schools are swamped by students with limited English proficiency and students/parents with limited knowledge/appreciation of American social/cultural norms. Many of the good jobs with reasonable pay and possibility of advancement that were available 50 years ago for high school graduates have now disappeared.

Thus to compare the aggregate results today's el-hi schools, particularly economic results, with those of 50 years ago is largely meaningless.

IMNSHO when comparable groups of students under approximately the same conditions of instructions are examined, it appears that about the same academic results are being obtained by the standardized test scores and other instruments such as the ACT and SAT. What this means in the real world is still under [raucous] debate.

Reply to
F. George McDuffee

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