OT-Credible alternatives for students

Yes, student debt is bundled and sold, as is all other debt.

On the other hand, there was a number of studies, however, that show that the value of education, in terms of future wages, easily exceeds its cost.

I have two educations, computer science degree that I got in Russia, and MBA. The CS degree was free to me (in Russia) but the MBA was not free.

I estimate that the economic value of my education, every year, if I allocate it to the respective degrees, is perhaps 1/2 of the total cost that it would be if I studied for both degrees in the US, every year. Clearly a good deal to get 1/2 the cost every year.

Another benefit of college education is not having to breathe fumes, deal with back problems etc.

The logical conclusion is that if this is the case, then unskilled wages would become too high due to shortage of unskilled workers. This does not seem to be happening. The unskilled wages are in the toilet.

I want my kids to get college education and to learn something very complicated and useful that cannot be easily automated.

i

Apparently only the "invisible" hand of the market forces.

Most all debt such as car loans, credit cards and student loans have been bundled to create collateralized debt obligations, most of it structured and the "trust" located/incorporated in a tax haven such as Bermuda or Aruba beyond the reach of US law.

IMNSHO this overstates the case. What appears to be occurring is that with the globalization of trade and industry there is a drastic reduction in the number of scientists, engineers and technicians required, i.e. how many times do you need to develop a basic product/process? With the globalization of trade and industry how many variations of basic products can the market support? For example, how many models/makes of cell phones can be viable. Given the economies of scale, there can be only a few viable producers. With automation and productivity improvements the need for skilled and unskilled labor is drastically reduced.

Many. The need for collage graduates is indeed dropping, and thus the demand for and their wages are also falling. In fact this was one of the findings of my dissertation. The world, the economy, the culture, and society are in the process of increasingly rapid systemic change, and the old order is "gone with the wind." For details see

One of my more controversial findings is presented in posits that when accepted accounting techniques such as ROI/DCF are used to estimate the value of "education" the actual internal rate of return is very low as of 1999. While I have not recalculated using more recent data, this still appears to be correct.

other monographs that may be of interest

======= Indeed, this is what produces a high income (other than luck and/or inherited wealth) as long AS LONG AS THERE IS A DEMAND OVER SUPPLY.

A few problems:

(1) With globalization, you are in competition with 7 billion people, most of whom have far lower acquisition, fixed and running costs.

(2) College is designed to produce large numbers of people with desired skill sets and abilities.

(3)"Abstract reasoning"is among the easier fields to automate/computerize yet currently is among the most highly stressed. One example is language translation.

I wish you and your kids luck in a very challenging environment.

I am accepting the possibility that, in the future, my kids would earn as much as comparable competent workers in other countries. It may even be a fair thing to happen.

I am much more afraid that they would be not competent and thus not needed by the "automation economy" at all.

It is not easy at all to automate abstract reasoning.

We all need a lot of luck.

i

it honestly is NOT true that abstract reasoning is an easy field to automate, nor is it true that natural language translation works very well - there are translation engines (gisters) that will give you a general idea of what is said, but not the nuances. Don't believe me, translate "time flies like arrows, fruit flies like bananas" using the engine of your choice - translate it to say Thai, or to Khemer, or even Spanish, and then translate it back - see what you get

however, you are not understanding the true purpose of a college education in this country - it is not to provide a specific technical skill or a reasoning skill, but it trains you to acquire the types of skills you will actually need in your chosen field.

The approaches cited are far from abstract reasoning.

The reason for this is quite obvious to me. Immigrant and especially ILLEGAL immigrant labor. :-) ...Lew...

======= The following should be of interest to you and others in your situation.

May 19 (Bloomberg) -- Ten months after graduating from Ohio State University with a civil-engineering degree and three internships, Matt Grant finally has a job -- as a banquet waiter at a Clarion Inn near Akron, Ohio.

?It?s discouraging right now,? said the 24-year-old, who sent out more than 100 applications for engineering positions. ?It?s getting closer to the Class of 2010, their graduation date. I?m starting to worry more.?

Schools from Grant?s alma mater to Harvard University will soon begin sending a wave of more than 1.6 million men and women with bachelor?s degrees into a labor market with a 9.9 percent jobless rate, according to the Education and Labor departments. While the economy is improving, unemployment is near a 26-year high, rising last month from 9.7 percent in January-March as more Americans entered the workforce.

-- Unka George (George McDuffee) .............................. The past is a foreign country; they do things differently there. L. P. Hartley (1895-1972), British author. The Go-Between, Prologue (1953).

Here's an even better idea. If you do not graduate from high school by

19, you get to pick an armed service of your choice to enlist in, and COMPLETE, a 2 year stint, or you are ineligible for government assistance and a drivers license.

One or the other, get an education or serve your country, let's cut out the free rides for those that don't need it.

Steve, many countries practice something like that. For example, everyone in Russia who does not get admitted to college, has to complete one year of compulsory service. It used to be two years.

It is not unresonable in principle, but as far as I know, the military now prefers paid volunteers. If someone could not complete high school, chances are good that this person is stupid or has personality problems, and would be unlikely to learn what the military has to teach.

i

Why would I want someone that incompetent trained in weaponry and tasked to defend my country?

David

Don't worry. They would be cooks, or work in the mail room. Then again, they always need more brain damaged D.I.s and knuckle dragging idiots in the supply chain. :(

Just as likely, they'd be sent to OCS.

David

2 reasons. reduce the welfare roll, and cannon fodder.

========= Don't confuse stupidity/incompetence with ignorance, bad environment, and lack of positive roll models. Before you make a choice you have to know there is an alternative.

While not a panacea or cure-all, just getting many people out of a highly toxic environment and providing positive roll models and considerable reinforcement has worked wonders in [re]integrating individuals into productive activity and general society after their term of military service.

Only if they cam march in a straight line, and are inbred at least three generations. :(

The change in some people was amazing. Some were showing improvement before they left basic training. Others took longer. Some people don't know about it, but there were programs were small time criminals were sent into the military. If they behaved during their time in service, their criminal records were expunged. Like I said above, they were given jobs they could handle. They were generally worked hard, so they didn't feel like starting a fight or going out to steal something after they got off duty.

True. I withdraw the cannon fodder statement. I do believe my two alternatives are a step in the right direction. If school in a bad environment is not a viable option, the military is a fresh start, in a fairly well controlled environment. Free training, and a chance to learn how to order and prioritize your life.

Steve Walker wrote in news:q7OdnYJJNs9zbGjWnZ2dnUVZ snipped-for-privacy@giganews.com:

Free training, and a chance to learn how to order and prioritize their lives, are both provided by the penal system >without< teaching them how to destroy and kill efficiently.

Given their propensity for violence and disorder, the penal system is where they'll end up.