OT: For the legal eagles

Nick, up here in the US we've got all the work we can handle trying to figure out the goofy laws that our own government creates. Sorry, I can't help you.

On Fri, 09 Apr 2004 10:38:09 GMT, Jim Stewart vaguely proposed a theory ......and in reply I say!: remove ns from my header address to reply via email

They're never goofy. There's always a reason.

It might be a goofy one though

maybe you are reading wrong??? it seems to me that what you wrote is that the Promotion of the suicide is what they are concerned about... and if there is not promotion then its not an offense... and just being in possession of the material is not an offense, but when using the telecommunications then you committed an offense...... and what i am reading is not the proposed law, but what you have posted and you might have left out just one word and this might change things around????

On Fri, 09 Apr 2004 09:58:01 GMT, Old Nick brought forth from the murky depths:

Money, most likely. It's probably the fines they levy which makes it worthwhile.

What I want to know is why the gov'ts of the world are trying to spend money keeping people alive who don't want to be alive.

Or is it just a CONTROL issue? They want full control over every aspect of our lives.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - If God approved of nudity, we all would have been born naked. ----- ----- ----- ----- ----- -----

On Fri, 09 Apr 2004 12:24:02 GMT, jim vaguely proposed a theory ......and in reply I say!: remove ns from my header address to reply via email

No. Being in possession of the material is an offence...IF it can be shown that you _intended_ to use the the carrier to make it available.

But attempting to be in possession of the material is specifically stated as not being an offence.

No such rider is made on the fact that you have the material, and _attempt_ to use a carrier to make it available. I assume this is because this immediately proves that (a) you had the material, and (b) you had it for the purposes of making it available using the carrier. So trying to (1) immediately makes you guilty of (2)

On Fri, 09 Apr 2004 22:58:59 GMT, "Ed Huntress" vaguely proposed a theory ......and in reply I say!: remove ns from my header address to reply via email

Sort of like living with Nanny?

On Fri, 09 Apr 2004 07:34:00 -0700, Larry Jaques vaguely proposed a theory ......and in reply I say!: remove ns from my header address to reply via email

I wondered about difficulty of proof. This is _definitely_ not a money issue. This is .......well see your question below.

Soapbox

Religion, largely. Religious people and those who fear their power, even though they may privately support the right to die if and when you want to, will not publicly support it, and will in fact publicly oppose it.

There are people who will _use_ it and _do_ it, both to themselves and to others, but never support it publicly.

Unfortunately even those who agree with VE and will say they support it would rather it went away. Dying is not something people want to think about, much.

My late Mum was into legalising VE, and my Dad still is, in a pretty big way. It can get very depressing hearing nothing but talk of people killing themselves, believe me, even though you believe in and support the principles that are being stated.

I think that "they" individually would disagree, because each of them only wants to control certain parts. But of course the sum of their control looks pretty total to us.

On Sat, 10 Apr 2004 02:31:52 GMT, Old Nick brought forth from the murky depths:

Yes, that, too.

Funny, isn't it? Why the great fear of death? Heck, harvest my organs, burn the rest, and I'll see ya on the rebound. ;)

I'm tempted to get a medical ID tag which says "Do not resuscitate." If I'm in a nasty wreck and there is less than a 70/30% of saving me in -really- good shape, let me go.

My entire family supports VE and none of us wants to end up a vegetable in a hospital while we're out of it, or they think we are. Trapped in a body which is kept alive, with no way to express yourself? Scary thought, that. Real Hell.

To be sure. Why the "suicide watch" on Death Row? That's the most assinine waste of money ever flushed.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - If God approved of nudity, we all would have been born naked. ----- ----- ----- ----- ----- -----

He lived in the Peoples Demokratic Republik of New Jersey also?

Gunner

"By calling attention to 'a well regulated militia', the 'security' of the nation, and the right of each citizen 'to keep and bear arms', our founding fathers recognized the essentially civilian nature of our economy. Although it is extremely unlikely that the fears of governmental tyranny which gave rise to the Second Amendment will ever be a major danger to our nation, the Amendment still remains an important declaration of our basic civilian-military relationships, in which every citizen must be ready to participate in the defense of his country. For that reason, I believe the Second Amendment will always be important." -- Senator John F. Kennedy, (D) 1960

Michigan, actually.

Ed Huntress

On Sat, 10 Apr 2004 12:58:19 GMT, "Ed Huntress" brought forth from the murky depths:

"That's a Joisey 'boib, ain't it?" he queried from the Left Coast.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - If God approved of nudity, we all would have been born naked. ----- ----- ----- ----- ----- -----

It's in that narrow strip of mud that lies between the Delaware River and the Pacific Ocean, if you've ever seen that map that appeared on the cover of the _New Yorker_ a couple of decades ago.

Ed Huntress

Having grown up there, with most of my relatives still living there...there is not much difference between the two, as least in Lansing.

Gunner

"By calling attention to 'a well regulated militia', the 'security' of the nation, and the right of each citizen 'to keep and bear arms', our founding fathers recognized the essentially civilian nature of our economy. Although it is extremely unlikely that the fears of governmental tyranny which gave rise to the Second Amendment will ever be a major danger to our nation, the Amendment still remains an important declaration of our basic civilian-military relationships, in which every citizen must be ready to participate in the defense of his country. For that reason, I believe the Second Amendment will always be important." -- Senator John F. Kennedy, (D) 1960

Having lived 8 years in Michigan and about 35 in New Jersey, I'd say the differences in the people are not as great as some people think.

Ed Huntress

On Fri, 09 Apr 2004 20:33:01 -0700, Larry Jaques vaguely proposed a theory ......and in reply I say!: remove ns from my header address to reply via email

hmmm...fear of the unknown, I suppose. Ironically, those who usually most strongly oppose VE are the ones who should have least fear of death (as long as they are _sure_ they have behaved themselves ). But the trap is that VE would immediately consign them, in their belief, to that worst of eternities.

I just wish they'd let _me_ go to hell, if I am to, on my own choices! . Almost by definition, I will anyway!

The "Living Will" is what VE people provide. Its wording is difficult. Usually causes all sorts of trouble, and fails :-My entire family supports VE and none of us wants to end up a

Yes. I have to admit that that is more depressing than simply talking of not being here. Waiting in undignified agony or helplessness, to not be here, is worse.

I often say that while what's left is messy, a nice big bullet in the back of the head, or standing next to a (competent) suicide bomber, may not be so bad after all. But I just _know_ it would happen just when I was walking out of that successful interview, feeling really good! Hey! Can't lose. Died feeling good!

At present, the _best_ out you legally can have is to be trapped in a body that is allowed to die of whatever it is the body would die of. This could mean starvation over a long time. As things stand with the law, there is frequent Euthanasia (woops! The painkillers were just too much!), but it's almost NEVER Voluntary! Justified, yes. But not voluntary.

I agree. But we need our revenge! The person has no right to leave as they feel fit. It has some merit, even if it's only to make others feel better, I guess. Until someone close to me was the victim of such a criminal, I am not sure how I would feel about seeing "justice done".

My Old Man (largely anti-execution; he emphasises the Voluntary part of VE heavily) reckons they should give every "lifer" and potential death-rower a cell, and a pill in a jar, and say "You are here till you die one way or another. Over to you and your conscience/patience, meboy!". Basically you could not give a rat's arse about them any more.

On Fri, 09 Apr 2004 20:33:01 -0700, Larry Jaques vaguely proposed a theory ......and in reply I say!: remove ns from my header address to reply via email

Oh dear! Have I just used a Tele Carrier to describe suicide methods?

Just out of curiosity, how long did you live west of the Mississippi river and where? ( Besides the time you spent under a bridge, grokked out of your skull in the California 60s)

Gunner

"By calling attention to 'a well regulated militia', the 'security' of the nation, and the right of each citizen 'to keep and bear arms', our founding fathers recognized the essentially civilian nature of our economy. Although it is extremely unlikely that the fears of governmental tyranny which gave rise to the Second Amendment will ever be a major danger to our nation, the Amendment still remains an important declaration of our basic civilian-military relationships, in which every citizen must be ready to participate in the defense of his country. For that reason, I believe the Second Amendment will always be important." -- Senator John F. Kennedy, (D) 1960

'Never lived west of the Mississippi. I've lived in New Jersey, Michigan, New York, Pennsylvania, Maryland, and Florida. One year in Switzerland.

The brief California experience was not exactly living. It was more like survival camping. And it was in 1970, starting in May (right after Kent State, when Mich. State Univ. closed down), running into the following September.

Ed Huntress

So then you really have no idea of the geopolitical and cultural mindset of westerners as a group, neither then, or now.

Thanks for the confirmation.

Respects

Gunner

"By calling attention to 'a well regulated militia', the 'security' of the nation, and the right of each citizen 'to keep and bear arms', our founding fathers recognized the essentially civilian nature of our economy. Although it is extremely unlikely that the fears of governmental tyranny which gave rise to the Second Amendment will ever be a major danger to our nation, the Amendment still remains an important declaration of our basic civilian-military relationships, in which every citizen must be ready to participate in the defense of his country. For that reason, I believe the Second Amendment will always be important." -- Senator John F. Kennedy, (D) 1960