OT: millions of lines of code?

Somewhat off-topic but many of the newsgroup subscribers are into computers as well as machining. See story at bottom of rant.

Some observations:

(1) Millions of lines of code? I used to teach computer programming and I would flunk any student who came in with more than about 1,000 lines of code to do a simple accumulator array, excluding windows function calls and hooks. I may go another 500 lines for a front-end interface to terminal and maybe 1,000 lines for odbc function calls to access and verify voter ID from a central data base. I would also expect accepted programming practice such as structured/modular/OOP programming, plenty of comments, no global variables, strongly typed variables, a complete flow diagram and variable cross reference listing. I would also expect the programming to be done in a high-level, generally used language, such as C#, C++, etc. so it can be inspected for Trojans, trap-doors, hooks, etc.

(2) « ... executives at the voting machine makers said Tuesday they would not submit their most valuable data — their proprietary source code.» My observation – you don’t have to supply your source code, but we don’t have to buy your machines. Just what language are these proprietary programs written in, and where?

(3) Given the potential and incentive for fraud and abuse, the executable code should be compiled by a governmental agency from the approved source, and a hash total calculated, so that the programs loaded and running on the voting machines can be verified against the approved version, several times during the day, not just when loaded (i.e. one time).

George McDuffee

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Following story from Yahoo news: E-Voting Cos. Reveal Software to Feds By RACHEL KONRAD, AP Technology Writer SAN JOSE, Calif. - The nation's largest voting machine companies are submitting millions of lines of code to the National Software Reference Library to address sharp criticism from computer scientists about the secret software used in elections. But executives at the voting machine makers said Tuesday they would not submit their most valuable data — their proprietary source code. And they might not provide the library with copies of software patches, updates and upgrades. Computer scientists said the conciliatory gesture wouldn't help ensure the integrity of next week's presidential election, when as many as 29 million Americans will cast electronic ballots. Some researchers worry that hackers, software bugs, ill-trained poll workers or power outages could intentionally or accidentally erase or alter voting data. "This is a step in the right direction," said Doug Jones, associate professor at the University of Iowa's computer science department. "I just wish these steps had been taken earlier. I say hooray, but it's a long-term benefit with some pretty glaring caveats." Executives from the largest equipment makers in the United States — Election Systems & Software, Sequoia Voting Systems, Diebold Election Systems and Hart InterCivic — announced Tuesday that they had already submitted many versions of the software that will be used to tally votes next week. The library, run by the National Institute of Standards and Technology, also holds proprietary code from Microsoft Corp., Oracle Corp. and other technology giants. Executives acted at the request of the U.S. Election Assistance Commission, a year-old federal agency created through the Help America Vote Act. EAC Chairman DeForest Soaries Jr. acknowledged that the data was far from complete. But he said the companies' ongoing submissions could eventually make election software more transparent to computer scientists, who want "open source" voting software that can be independently inspected. Scientists were pessimistic, noting that hackers could delete ballots on a particular machine without any worries that the library archives would foil them. No technology on the market today allows an election official to check software code that's already been installed and used on an individual voting machine and compare it to the software code stored in the library, noted library director Barbara Guttman. Avi Rubin, technical director of the Information Security Institute of Johns Hopkins University, called the program "meaningless." "At a high level, this plan sounds good," Rubin said. "It reminds me of when people take security measures simply for appearance's sake — to make you feel better. But it's not adding any real security." The big vendors and a smaller company, Avante International Technology, said the archive now contains significant parts of the code to be used Nov. 2 in Florida, California, Georgia, Maryland, Delaware, New Mexico and Nevada. They also submitted vote-tallying software and other "election management" programs. All the software in the library has been certified by independent testing authorities. Many states require such certification before running the programs in actual elections. Mark Radke, a marketing director at Diebold, said data storage "should provide substantial assurance to the voting public that their vote is accurately and securely tabulated." Companies submit data to the library on CD-ROMs, but the public cannot view the actual code. Instead, library technicians convert data into a mathematical algorithm known as a "hash" — the digital equivalent of a fingerprint. Election supervisors can compare the hash on software they're about to install to the hash in the library. If the fingerprints don't match, they know the software is not the same one certified by an independent testing authority. On the Net: National Software Reference Library:

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Reply to
gmcduffee
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Reply to
Robert Swinney

And the metalworking content would be . . .

Reply to
Robert Swinney

The underlying OS with all of the voting computer programs is Windows. This means that they are already in trouble with software that is buggy. Next is that they are using commercial database software to handle the counting process and that software has known holes in security for this purpose. Not only that, but the idiots are trying to put the whole process on the Internet for communication! Millions of lines of code? Yep, Microsoft Windows, Access, Visual C++ or Visual Basic all end up with many millions of lines of code that you have to wade through to get a working program in the voting tabulator and so forth.

-- Why isn't there an Ozone Hole at the NORTH Pole?

Reply to
Bob May

Bob May sez: "Why isn't there an Ozone Hole at the NORTH Pole?"

But there is! It accounts for radiation-warming of the polar ice cap. The polar ice cap is formed from re-melted sea water which seeped along the earth's axel up from the South Polar region.

Bob Swinney

Reply to
Robert Swinney

Simple. Did you really want a voting system based on Windows ?

Thought not. So they rolled their own operating system.

Its horse exhaust anyways. Any voting machine should NEVER be hooked to ANY network. The results should be written to flash, and hand carried back to another computer which is also NOT on the network for tally, or preferably ship the entire machine back.

Bottom line, don't trust computers at all. Give the voting machine a hard case and locked doors. The computer media is extracted at the end of the day from a locked door to a locked box, and carried back to the tally point.

Computers are new. The way they survive the trust issues is to not trust them, but back them up completely with tried and true methods of steel plate and locks.

If they didn't do this, its an invite to fraud. Sooner or later.

PS. DON'T CROSSPOST.

Reply to
Scott Moore

There's an axle? Then the axle seal must be leaking. Somebody better fix that....

Jim

Reply to
jim rozen

Jim sez: "There's an axle? Then the axle seal must be leaking. Somebody better fix that...."

Of course there's an axel. It is the well know "axis" that the earth spins on. The axel (axis) is approximately 3518 miles in diameter; and tremendous friction from the earth rotating about it is the cause of heat inside the earth. The axel was once visible at the top and bottom "poles" of the earth but the ends of it are now covered by the so-called polar ice caps. Continual melting and refreezing over time has caused the ice caps to pile up and seal over each end of the earth's axel.

Bob Sw>>

Reply to
Robert Swinney

On Wed, 27 Oct 2004 12:19:18 -0500, "Robert Swinney" calmly ranted:

Watching those in office (and the bozos who cater to them) makes one wish to bang their heads against their metalworking machines.

Reply to
Larry Jaques

I spent 30 years as a software developer. When I started, we couldn't count millions of lines of code -- or even thousands. With 16K bytes in our mainframe, code lines was counted in hundreds, or even tens.

So you ask about metalworking content... well, the software industry has become a commodity supplier, quality has little meaning, efficiency is a foreign word, obsolescence preceeded release, and all I have to show for it is a lousy "bit bucket". So, I decided to do something real -- I became a metalworker.

-Bruno

"Robert Sw>And the metalworking content would be . . .

Reply to
Bruno

Note that your reply lost the "OT:" flag off the beginning of the Subject line, and everyone who followed up to your article also lost it.

I'm sure that this was not intentional, but rather an artifact of the behavior of some newsreaders.

I suspect that some newsreaders are taking any two-character sequence followed by a colon and a space as equivalent to "Re: ", and stripping it off prior to adding a new "Re: ", to prevent cascades of

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Whatever

So -- I would suggest that all do as I have, and place the "OT" at the end of the subject line, and put it in parens "()" instead of putting a colon ':' between it and the main subject. This should avoid the problem of the vanishing "OT".

Enjoy, DoN.

Reply to
DoN. Nichols

[ ... ]

No -- but that's what we got. At least in Virginia, the system is even called "WinVote".

Nope -- it is done under Windows -- the worst possible choice.

And the WinVote systems use *wireless* networking to communicate the collected data. Even worse!

Agreed!

And do you trust the people running the tally point computer? Are you *sure*?

Amen! And we may well see it this election.

Shudder -- tons more OT discussion after the election, trying to deal with the fraud issue.

Enjoy, DoN.

Reply to
DoN. Nichols

It's a complete whitewash. Did you know the election judge's PIN on **ALL** voting machines from one company (I think that is Diebold, but I'm not positive) is 1111? For every machine and precinct nationwide? Security? There's absolutely none! Funny they could get different PINs to work on their ATMs.

How about voting early and often? One of the systems gives you a "smart card" to enable you to vote. You can apparently put the smart card into the voting station as many times as you want, and cast as many ballots as you care to, if a polling worker doesn't catch you. In a busy polling place, this might be pretty easy to carry out. So, after you've voted, the smart card can't be cancelled? Why not?

It seems in ALL systems that election judges can simply alter the totals at will, like a spreadsheet! And, it doesn't even take two to authorize such changes!

Without a paper audit trail, the vote is meaningless!

Jon

Reply to
Jon Elson

You have been reading WAY too many science-fiction/paranoia stories....

Reply to
Mark Phillips

There might be some concern, considering that the Homeland Security forces have tried to block some voter registations.

Any such source code would need to be entirely open and available to the public for inspection and testing.

Nor is there any need at all for it to be very complex code. The task is simple.

Reply to
Cliff Huprich

Nope, just listening to All Things Considered on NPR. They've been interviewing the experts various states called in to consult on the voting systems. I'm NOT making this up!

Jon

Reply to
Jon Elson

I know you are not making it up, but I read all of that code supposed to be encrypted so all the election officials see is a meaningless number sheet to compare to software sheets. I also believe that there is some cause for concern for everyone, and not just one party or the other. This computer stuff that is supposed to be so helpful to us could, in fact, take us back many years if it is NOT secure. Some say it is, and some say it is not, but neither side has absolute proof, which means it should be checked.

-- Mark

Reply to
Mark Phillips

The task is simple, but people aren't, which is why any human interface design is prone to a myriad of unexpected problems.

In my personal experiance, writing code that interfaces with real-time human response is the largest, bulkiest, most complex code.

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Reply to
Mark Storkamp

Meanwhile 60,000 ballot papers have gone missing in Florida.

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Reply to
Guido

I haven't heard ANYONE who is not working for a manufacturer of these machines say it IS secure. Mostly they express grave doubts, or are quite clear there are mile-wide holes in the system. There was a vote a few months ago in ?Ohio? (not sure of the state) where they had no paper trail, 265 or so registered voters in the county, (or was that precinct?) and had 4 million votes cast. No way to recount, figure out what went wrong, or anything! Nobody would add 4 million votes on purpose to such a small district, so it was either operator error or software malfuction. This was something mentioned on NPR by one of the consultants they've been interviewing.

Jon

Reply to
Jon Elson

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