Bingo. We are not the problem. Problem is underdeveloped countries that are spewing all the unwashed pollution. That and fat cat politicians running all around in their jets spewing exhaust and verbal flatulence.
Steve
Unlike you, I would be willing to contribute more income to the government if it actually went to making this a better country. If less went into the military and more went into what matters to a nation. Things like deciding to find alternative sources of energy other than fossil fuels, providing health care to all, making improvements to the national infrastructure, bringing income inequality under control, cleaning the environment, making education work for everyone, and providing for the future of the nation and its people. You know, the things that no one has been doing anything about improving for the last decade.
Your problem is that you have not understood that not accepting the right wing perspective on things doesn't make someone ignorant, naive, or misinformed. In fact, I would remind you that for the last 8 years the country has followed a right wing, business oriented approach to everything. In case you missed it, most of the country is extremely pissed off about where the country is these days. You need to understand that when things fail you change them. This isn't a business where when you fail you can go out of business with a golden parachute. Our country can't do that. We have to go on, but to keep the same policies going that Bush has implemented would be sheer madness. If you want that I would say you should vote for McCain. Which is what you are planning to do, right?
Hawke
Please Tom, no trite cliches in place of a real argument. Don't you have anything to contribute but the same old crap? Especially when it's not even true. I mean how stupid can you be? Don't you think everyone knows that taxes are taken from people who earn an income? Christ!
Hawke
I guess you are unaware that the US produces 25% of the world's greenhouse gasses and leads in other classes of pollution too. Because you wouldn't be saying things that you know are clearly untrue, right? Unless, you were just lying. So were you mistaken or lying?
Hawke
When certain regions of the world are not counted as they were 'developing'. Ever see the massive brown cloud that is the size of several western states and stays there all year long. Typhoons push it around but it regains itself fast.
We can write that the US produces 100% of the Arizona greenhouse gases or we can start to take full account of China, Russia, South East Asia (brown stain).
Martin
Mart>>>> Now you have me curious...how could the years since 2000 been worst >>>> with Gore?
A, B, and C
================= One person's harassment is another person's vigorous tax enforcement.
The only criticism is that they should have tried another company such as a major corporation, but then you kept such neat records...
Hawke, Actually, I am disenchanted with the ignorance of the lot, including McCain. I am a very practical person and I know when a speaker does not understand the subject matter. I also see the failure of public health systems everywhere. There are no success stories, public health doesn't work. I agree, health care for all is required, but not public health tax payer funded. To do that is to repeat failure. Steve
By whom? Writing in the subjunctive case is just a way to evade responsibility for accuracy.
For example, it was reported this morning at 6:29 that terminally scary alien beings were invading my property, and would soon be disemboweled. Then I yelled at my dog to stop barking.
The American economy has been in a decline for decades. (note that I have no training in economics to distract me, so I can be as intelligent about this as my dog was this morning about protecting my property). Bush is pretty convincing proof that if you put a chimpanzee through Yale you will _not_ get a genius out the other end, and his policies have probably temporarily accelerated the decline, but I don't think that he, or the Republicans, made it happen. And Gunner, before you start foaming at the mouth: I don't think the current crop of Democrats could have done any better.
What _has_ happened is that parts of the 3rd world are catching up with us. In this catching up they are doing the same thing to us that we did to Britain in the 19th century: they're on their way up to our level of competence, but their populations are willing to work for a lot less money. We're doing the same thing that Britain did in the 19th century, and Spain did in the 17th: we're busy forgetting how to work.
So while the Democrats on the 'left' are navel gazing about health care and stealing from the rich to give to the poor, and the Republicans on the 'right' are working on getting government out of the way of the rich stealing from poor for their own selves, no one is paying attention to the fact that we're all digging through a pile of rapidly rotting manure for a few gold trinkets.
I don't think we'll ever be able to regain the dominance that we had in the '40's and '50's -- that was as much about the rest of the world lying prostrate after WWII as it was about our own merit. I _do_ think that we _could_ do better, but only after a period of adjustment (China's wages and freedoms need to move up, as do many other Asian countries).
The changes can't be political, though -- they have to be social. People need to stop sitting back and whining about how they can't do things because of this, or that, or the other thing; instead they have to look forward, think hard, and _do_ what needs to get done to move on, in spite of prevailing government, economic conditions, or what not. As long as we can't move forward without government grants or tax breaks it'll be _our_ fault for not progressing, not some outside influence.
-- Tim Wescott Control systems and communications consulting
You get an honorary degree in economics for that one, Tim. d8-)
I'm going to assume you know full well that you're describing one of the most difficult things for any society to do: regroup and recoup while it's running out of fuel and a big hill looms straight ahead.
-- Ed Huntress
================== IMNSHO much insight here. This rot is taking out the very foundations of manufacturing and therefore metalworking.
Where/when did the standard American objective become to live large rather than live long and well. What is required to inject some sanity? More "do as I say, don't do as I do" won't cut it.
I'm well aware of it. My kids aren't going to have it as good as I did, and I pray that enough of their generation figures out what needs to be done to hold the line, and then does it. I only have another 20 to 40 years to make a difference, and there are more people my age who ask "how can I get mine" than "how can I help". "Ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country" got cheers when JFK said it, but I don't see it resonating much today in our choice of leaders.
I had to. Their first error was when I applied for a tax number for my industrial electronics business, they issued me a liquor license. Then they were threatening me with arrest by the state police for their error, even though I had already turned it back in. Their harassment never stopped.
If you look at how the other industrialized countries are dealing with public health care you find one constant. None of them uses a private system to provide health care. All of them have a nationalized system. All of them spend about half as much money as a percentage as we do. They cover everyone for life. Overall their health outcomes are as good or better than ours are. Those are facts not my opinion. Given those facts, don't you wonder why we continue trying to keep an expensive, inefficient system that is doomed to fail eventually going? Every unbiased person that looks at health care delivery systems comes to the same conclusion; private systems like ours just won't work. All the developed countries have come to the same conclusion. We're out of step not them. We're not changing because of the influence of special interests who control our government. Eventually we're going to have a catastrophic failure and then we'll do what everyone knows has to be done. Until then nothing will change. Now me, I call a system that can only change when a disaster occurs a complete failure.
Hawke
Okay, it was reported by Christine Romans on the Lou Dobbs show on CNN....How's that? I also saw the auto repossession story on other news programs too.
You had me agreeing with you right up until you gave your opinion that the Democrats couldn't have done any better than Bush has. Considering that Bush owns the record when it comes to mucking things up the probability of anyone else doing as badly as him is extremely high. I think virtually anyone else would have done a far better job than Bush regardless of party.
No argument here except for the fact that Americans work longer hours than just about anyone else in the world and way longer than anyone in the industrial world. That includes Japanese and Koreans. They're doing it for the same relative pay as they were getting almost forty years ago too.
It's more like the Democrats are looking to help out the poor and middle class and the republicans are looking to help out business and wealthy people. Nothing new there. As usual though if you are not in business or are wealthy your life is better when Democrats are in power.
We'll never dominate like we did when we owned the manufacturing sector of the world, but nobody else will either.
You have two theories here. One is that people can and will move ahead and progress if they have the willpower and desire to get ahead. The other is that without the government getting involved the people won't be able to make much progress on their own. I think the facts and history support the second theory. In every place that has been successful the only ones that did it without the government leading the way are Singapore, Switzerland, and Belgium. I could be wrong about it being Belgium, but the rest of the world has needed government to make its economic gains. The myth is that government is an impediment to economic growth but it's just that, a myth.
Hawke
In the long run, I think the weak dollar will help us. Part of the problem has been that what's sensible in the short term is just wrong in the long term: build stuff new that won't last 1/10th the time that it should, then send it off half way around the world to replace things that are going to cost more to fix than to replace.
And why? Because it's cheaper to have some guy in China or Malaysia spend a day or two putting a saw together than it is to have a guy in the US spend an hour fixing that same saw. So not only don't we spend the day to build the saw here, we don't even spend the hour to fix the damn thing! Instead, we just schlep on down to Home Depot and get a new one, and throw the old one in the trash 'cause it's not even worth tearing it up for the copper windings.
The same thing goes for refrigerators, and dishwashers, and shirts and shoes and belt-buckles and nearly everything else. As long as those guys 'over there' are so severely underpaid that they can produce ten times as much per buck as we can, it just won't make sense for us to buy locally made goods.
On the other hand, the long-term sensible thing to do is to build quality products and keep them up. So if it were cost effective to pay a guy for a day's worth of time to rebuild a saw rather than buying one, then not only would the repair guys find themselves with business, but you'd suddenly see a demand for saws that cost twice as much, last ten times as long, and can actually be repaired.
I see the free market not only as having the capacity to correct this, but to be in the process of correcting it. The dollar is getting weaker, folks in China (and probably other nasty places) are getting more pay. It'll take ages, and it may never level out all the way, but business people go where the money is, so as the wages get more equal they're going to start looking for other places to manufacture their stuff.
The rub is going to come to this: when they come to knock on our door, will we still know how to build the knocker? If we can retain the ability and the will to do so, then I think we'll do alright.
What do you suggest we do if the free market permanently gives us the losing end of the deal? What if according to free market principles we just can't compete and win in the global market anymore? What if in the free market other nations simply compete better because they have the qualities necessary to win and we don't Would you be satisfied to accept this judgment of the free market or would you think we should try something besides a market system when we are unable to compete in and win in? There are winners and losers in free markets, more losers. We have been able to win and dominate but that was when we had the advantages on our side. When those advantages are held by another country should we sit back and continue to participate in a system we are systemically doomed to fail in? Free markets are great when you win. Not so much when you don't.
Hawke
What exactly are _you_ suggesting?
One VERY simple, Yes or No question, hawkie. Have you ever owned and run a small business in Ohio?
On Feb 23, 7:16=A0pm, F. George McDuffee
I have no Enron, Worldcom, Global Crossing, and K mart stock. But my Nucor, Danaher, and Illuminati stocks are doing fine. I am just an old country boy. I don't invest in derivatives. I leave that to those that believe they are smarter than the average invester.
So since you are interested in improving how companies use their profits, which stocks do you own?
Dan
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