OT: Question about SCSI disks for Sun gurus

Well, I wasn't aware that I was in Wisconsin. I'm really believe I am in Oklahoma City and have been for almost 60 years. Interesting info, Dave.
Sorry to be slow getting back to the group, but OKC where the salvage source I referred to is located. I'll post model types next time some show up. The BIG ones I referred to were several 19" rack cabinets in the 6-7 foot tall. Respectfully, Ron Moore

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Heh...sorry, I may have lost track of who was being asked what. The one I have is in Wisconsin.
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Well, ok, I do sometimes wonder myself. I was kinda curious there for a bit. Have a Merry, Y'all. Respectfully, Ron Moore


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The ecycler I go to sells a pallet of Ultra 10's every month for the last couple years, he can't keep U10's in stock. We don't know what the buyer is doing with them and we're not sure why the the U10's are preferred when U60's are considerably better performers, though I suspect its to do with the U10's IDE, being lots cheaper and easier and no spuds required.
He's just now starting to get in Blade 100/150 in 1's and 2's and the occasional 1000/2000. Next to none U80's or multi-processor Blades are coming in. Still a fair number of U2's and U5's are showing up. The flow of U1's and Sparcstations has nearly stopped, a couple years ago he had quite a few, though fair numbers of sbus cards show up, presumably stashes of spare parts.
Gregm

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Hi all,
I ran another lengthy surface analysis today using the "format" program. The option which destroys the data, like Don suggested. The disk crapped out completely, so I have my answer. I got hundreds of write errors and now the disk won't even provide me with its manufacturer and specifications. A bit annoying, but I'm really glad the disk died now rather than once I'd got a load of data on it.
I'm not sure whether to get another 68-pin 36 GB SCSI disk to go in the external case, or a 36 GB drive to put in an internal bay. Problem is, I already have two 9 GB drives in the internal bays, and I'm not sure I want to do a re-install. I've noticed that some of the latest Blastwave packages are slooooooooooooooowwwwwwww compared to the older ones, so I'm reluctant to re-install. However, I just scored a pair of 400 MHz/2MB cache processors on eBay ($60 for a pair, which I thought wasn't bad), so maybe this will give me the speed to cope with the newer versions of the packages.
Dave, what SCSI disks do you have? I'm in England so I'm not sure how much it would cost to post a disk here. I'll have to go to the USPS website and see. Are they 68-pin or 80-pin SCA? Make and model number would tell me all I need to know.
I haven't solved the GNOME problem yet, but it didn't happen today. Unless it happens often I won't worry about it.
Thanks for the help!
Best wishes,
Chris
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wrote:

Sounds like good news (the finding it now part). So what does the seller have to say?

I'd put the bigger drive on the external SCSI, copy your partitions over to it after setting up the other drive, make the other drive bootable, init 0 down to the OK prompt, and boot from the new drive to see how it works.
If you need better notes let me know I can write something up.

I know a couple Unix guys over there - or you could ask on maybe comp.unix.admin for a local (to you) source.

No worries, you have my email.
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    You might be able to get it to label the disk again and use it, but I would strongly suggest that this is a bad idea.

    Hmm ... if you can pick up a UniPack, you can put one of the SCA 36 GB drives externally. Or if you can pick up a MultiPack, you can put up to six of them if the 36 GB drives are 1.6" high, or up to 12 of them if the 36 GB drives are 1" high. (You don't have to fill it, but it is nice to have the extra room for spare drives when some start getting tired, to let you transfer data and then reformat and re-test the ones which are getting tired.
    Note that the 12-slit MultiPack skips over SCSI-IDs 0, 1, 6, and 7. The first two are the internal drives in the Ultra-2, the 6 is the CD-ROM or DVD-ROM drive, and 7 is the host adaptor's own address. This leaves 12 addresses for the 12 slots in the 12-slot MultiPack.

    It depends on how much disk Blastwave needs to use, and the capacity of the cache processors. They are nice for a disk server which has lots of quick reads and writes. I'm not so sure about the patterns which Blastwave (whatever it is) will use.
    And note that if you get a Multipack, the speed of the bus will be the speed of the slowest device on the bus. If you narrow down to an 8-bit SCSI (50-pin instead of 68-pin) that will really slow you down. Get the Multipack, and put in the fastest SCA interface Ultra-SCSI drives you can find.

    Good Luck,         DoN.

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    Also -- he may be using them to build firewalls. OpenBSD in one of those (with a PCI card offering one or more extra ethernet interfaces) makes a really nice firewall -- and there is no point in going to an Ultra-60 yet, because:
a)    The Ultra-10 is plenty fast enough for the task.
b)    OpenBSD doesn't yet handle SMP (Symmetric Multi-Processing)     so the extra CPU in the Ultra-60 is wasted.

    The U-2 is nice -- and is what I am currently using to type this. Not much difference between the U-2 and the U-60, other than the switch from sBus to PCI (which of course lets you access newer protocols with the right cards which are not available for the sBus.)
    Some sBus cards can be really useful. Others are rather specialized.
    Enjoy,         DoN.
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snipped-for-privacy@d-and-d.com (DoN. Nichols) writes:

The biggest drag I just ran into is I have a U2 with no cdrom and thus doesn't have the OEM scsi cable and the dimensions are such that conventional scsi cables won't reach to the cdrom and back.

Yep- in the pile of sbus boards I found a mysterious audio processing board, not even a manufacturer logo on it, and a nice little combo A to D, D to A and digital I/O board. Only missing a (IIRC) 128k dual port sram, I even got a copy of the driver...
Gregm
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    [ ... ]

    Hmm ... you can use a SCSI CD-ROM or DVD-ROM externally if you wish.
    But IIRC, the cable is a normal 50-pin with three IDC connectors on it -- two at the system board, and one in the middle for the CD or DVD ROM. (Standard with a DVD-ROM, IIRC.)
    Don't you have the ability to crimp IDC connectors on 50-pin ribbon cable? I do. (I'm trying to remember whether the cable is pure ribbon cable, or woven twisted pair. I do remember that it is squeezed down to a round profile at points in its routing. Send me an e-mail and I can check the spare U2 box (not enough RAM to run that one in a worthwhile mode, so it is there to swap in if something fails which needs a U2). If it uses real ribbon cable, I can probably even make a cable for you.
    Essentially, it takes the lower half of the 68-pin wide bus and loops it up past the CD-ROM drive and back to where it goes out the back of the system.
    You can also get tiny cards by Acard which will allow you to use an IDE drive on the SCSI bus. Make sure to get a 50-pin version for the internal drive, or you will get some very confused software, which will negotiate a wide SCSI, and then fail when only the narrow part works. :-)
    I'm using such a setup to drive a DVD-ROM burner, while using a standard SCSI DVD-ROM reader in the system box.

    Interesting. Among those which I have are some PrestoServe cards (which need new battery bricks on them, and a driver which understands and will install in a Solaris 10 system), which are cacheing for disk writes. I've seen one at work on an active server help a tray with four large (for the time) SCSI drives being power cycled by a bored little girl waiting for her father to get an old 9-track tape mounted and read. After getting her away from the power switch, I sat there and ran "fsck -n" on the drives and watched them getting better and better.
    I've also got some dual PCMCIA slots, some GPIB cards (without drivers), some video cards, and one four SYNC/ASYNC serial port card (by Magma). Also one card for which I've never figured out the purpose.
    Enjoy,         DoN.
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snipped-for-privacy@d-and-d.com (DoN. Nichols) writes:

Sure I could make a ribbon cable but no particular need to- I had the cdrom-less U2 and a dual 360 U60, so excessed the U2. It was really my own fault, I picked up the U2 without examining it closely.

I had a few of the pcmcia slot boards too, but traded them off to the guy who wanted my old SS10. I eventually tracked down a Turbo XGX which remains a pretty decent sbus vid board, though only 8 bit color- now in use in a quad Ross 125 SS20 clone. At work I have an Ultra 1 with a 8 port serial board, and I found one of the boxes w/ the dsub ports on ebay, connected the two with a cable from an sbus extender box- thankfully all pins thru and the right connectors. After replacing the cpu fan it works great- its a nfs root & terminal server for a rack of headless PPC Linux boxes.
Have you ever measured performance improvements when replacing an old 5400/7200 rpm drive w/ a 10k on a relatively slow system? I'm looking for ways to speed up the SS20 system and figured an drive upgrade might help- 10k 9gig drives are pretty cheap and I have a connector adaptor.
Gregm
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    [ ... ]

    O.K. The U60 has the advantage of having separate SCSI busses for the internal (two disks plus CD-ROM/DVD-ROM) and for the external (thus 15 complete drives possible on that bus, with no worries about collisions with the internal drives.
    [ ... ]

    I got mine from eBay for use with reading CF cards from my cameras through a PCMCIA adaptor. Now, I'm using a SCSI PCMCIA "drive" for the purpose -- which has the advantage that it can be accessed without working my way around to the back of the system. :-) That is connected to an sBus 50-pin SCSI host adaptor along with a DVD burner, an Exabyte 8505 8mm tape drive, and an Exabyte Mammoth-1 8mm tape drive.

    O.K. Until recently, I was using two dual ROSS cpu cards in an SS-10 -- but since they did not have cache, I had to run them from SunOs 4.1.4, not any of the Solaris 2 variants. They were the slowest CPUs in anything I was running at the time, but as a four CPU system, the machine did better under a news flood attack than a faster Solaris system with only one CPU. (The latter was brought to its knees by the attack.)

    So -- I'm not the only one to experience a dying fan in an Ultra-1. (140 MHZ version, wasn't it?) I wound up digging through DigiKey and Mouser and found a fan of the same voltage and dimensions, with the choice of Oilite style bearings or ball bearings, and I got the Ball bearing version -- two of them, and so far I have not needed to put in the second fan. (That system is going to be retired when I get the next Ultra-10, thus moving the Ultra-5 from web server to firewall duty, and drawing a lot less power than with the Ultra-1. :-)
    IIRC -- it is only the slower CPU on the Ultra 1 which has a fan. The faster version has no CPU fan -- just good airflow from the power supply. And the slower one does not have the slot for the fancier 24-bit framebuffers like the Creator-3D.
    Though there was the "graphics tower" which connected to an sBus card (and the rest lived in the same housing as the Sun 3/140 (3 VME board slots). I never had that one -- it seemed to be just too much space and power to be worthwhile. :-)

    I've never really been that concerned with disk speed. What I have has always been fast enough. The Ultra-5 and Ultra-10 systems are (of course) supplied with IDE, so that is what I am using. The rest have a mix of whatever SCSI drives I can find. (The old SS-10 with eight 50-pin drives will probably be retired soon, and replaced with an Ultra-60.)
    Isn't it nice how affordable these systems are these days? :-)
    Enjoy,         DoN.
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snipped-for-privacy@d-and-d.com (DoN. Nichols) writes:

I had a 4x55mhz Supersparc SS10 for a while. The Quad 125 Hypersparc does better... :)

The Ultra 1 at work is a 170mhz w/ cpu fan and Creator 3d. I have a 2nd Ultra 1 acting as a backup server out at my dad's, that is 170mhz as well but does not have a cpu fan.

I've thought about them a few times.. but scored a 100 tape ATL library w/ 7 dlt drives instead.

I love it... :)
The Hyperstation SS20 clone lets you adjust the mbus and memory bus speeds, I have them at max (took a bit of fiddling to find ram that would handle it). I never thought the 100baseT/scsi combo sbus boards made a lot of sense until I realized the SS20 only has 10baseT onboard. The only thing left to speed up is the hard disk.
Gregm
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    Of course, but some things (especially things which generate lots of processes) benefit from *any* increase in the number of CPUs. And the attacks were of the kind which generate lots of processes. Someone was flooding the news systems with lots of bogus "newgroup" messages, trying to create a bunch of bogus newsgroups. These were four 35MHz ones, and were still the winners under those conditions.
    This is why newsgroup creation is no longer automatic on most systems.

    O.K. Interesting. I knew that my 140 MHz one had the fan, and others which I had seen did not. And I read in something like comp.sys.sun.hardware that the ones without the fans were the later machines.

    That sounds great. My best is an Exabyte 430 -- Up to 30 tapes, and up to four Mammoth-II drives. Mine has only two drives at present, and I think that should suffice.
    [ ... ]

    :-)
    Yep! But how much speed do you *really* need?
    Enjoy,         DoN.
P.S.    I just recently received something which completes my crimper     collection. The final size -- 4/0 -- dies for the hydraulic     crimper by AMP. (And a set of 1/0 dies with the P.I.D.G.     insulation crimp included. That, at least, is metalworking,     with an amazing amount of force needed to crimp that size of     terminal. Now I have a set from #8 through #2 for one size     crimping head, and a set from 1/0 through 4/0 for the other     head. And a choice of a hand pump from Enerpac or a serious     electrically-powered pump if I have a lot to do. (Not exactly     the same as the crimper for producing your ribbon cable. :-)
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Having used a Sun computer from Sun 3 to Ultras having several with custom monitors I'd love to have some, knew where to get some but have not much place at this time.
Hope to some day.
Martin Martin H. Eastburn @ home at Lions' Lair with our computer lionslair at consolidated dot net TSRA, Life; NRA LOH & Endowment Member, Golden Eagle, Patriot"s Medal. NRA Second Amendment Task Force Charter Founder IHMSA and NRA Metallic Silhouette maker & member. http://lufkinced.com /
Ron Moore wrote:

-
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Got any bigger drives to trade? Scsi or whatever.
Gunner
Rule #35 "That which does not kill you, has made a huge tactical error"
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Not up on SCSI, but if you're having problems with Solaris there's a great IRC out there for it. And the Sun format utility is open, you can just look at the code and see what its defining as a factory defect is pretty limited. I wouldn't abandon the disk, but I would definitely zero it out and then read it back a few times- if it fails on I/O, you've got problems, if it doesn't, its probably good enough for non-critical use. I would still make sure and back up regularly- yeah, its everybody's favorite advice, and nobody does it enough- but it doesn't sound truly screwed yet. <shrugs> hell, if its that important to you, just use a gmail drive to back it up every night. I've always wondered if they would get mad at you for it lol. gcc
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gcc wrote:

OK, First of all it has nothing to do with the operating system, the issue of bad blocks on a disk has to due with surface defects. The surface of any given disk has defects, they are mapped out initially by the manufacturer however environmental issues also play into it and change the disk characterisics which is why you always want to format and check any disk surface before you put it into production. 22 bad blocks is insignificant and don't even give it a second thought. What you would want to look for is if you were having on going disk issues and your bad block table was growing significantly over a short period of time which would indicate that you may have a problem brewing and you should take the appropriate safe guards, backup, backup, backup. This is the nature of the beast and you will most likely over time develop additional bad blocks as the drive electronics age and their value changes but again unless it is a significant change and in a short period of time don't worry about it. BTW, I've done this for a living for the past 25 years so I think I know what I'm talking about.
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    Hmm ... this sounds more like one appropriate to comp.sys.sun.hardware than in a software (Solaris) newsgroup.

    O.K. The external SCSI connector on that is 68-pin SE Single-ended) SCSI. I've got a couple of them in service at the moment, including the one at which I am typing this.

    Perhaps the disk label was reset to factory settings, and the grown defects have occurred over time. I would try running "format" a second time (or actually, just the "diskcheck" sub-menu, which can do either destructive or non-destructive (to data) testing -- and since you don't have anything on the disk yet, I would suggest the destructive, as it is a more thorough test. If it grows more bad blocks, send it back.
    As for the external housing for the disk -- let's narrow things down a bit:
1)    Is it wide or narrow SCSI?
2)    What format is the disk? 50-pin SCSI, 68-pin fast wide SE     (Single-ended) SCSI, 68-pin HVD (High Voltage Differential),     68-pin LVD (Low Voltage Differential), or 80-pin SCA (SCSI, ID     select pins, and power all in a single connector)?
    Normally, a LVD interface can drive a SE device, or vice versa,     but if you mix SE and LVD on the same bus, everything will have     to run in SE mode. The only LVD thing which I know which won't     run on an SE interface is the Exabyte 430 tape jukebox and its     associated Mammoth 2 tapes. (For that, I had to get a Sun     Ultra-60 (quite similar to an Ultra to, except for having PCI     bus instead of sBus, so you can get host adaptor cards for the     LVD SCSI devices at need.)
3)    Who made the housing? If it is Sun, and is either 68-pin or     SCA, then the housing (a UniPack -- or MultiPack if 6 or 12     drive bays) should do termination automatically. If it is by     some other maker, you probably will need an external terminator.     And the 68-pin terminators come in three basic flavors: SE,     HVD, and LVD. some of the more expensive terminators can switch     modes. Others can't, and the wrong one will probably introduce     just enough errors to give you the grown bad block list.
4)    What brand of disk is it? If it is the SCA by Seagate, one which     is reaching its end-of-life will return a device identifier (to     probe-scsi-all and other tests including the format selector)     which has the 'T' replaced with an 'X'. Here is an example:
        SEAGATE-SX150176LC-BA0F
    this one happens to be a 50GB drive which I am playing with on     the Ultra-60 to see how long it will keep working. Obviously, I     am using it for non-critical tasks. The system will complain     every time it is booted and the disk is mounted, but since mine     shows no growing defect list, it still seems to be good, and is     only based on total hours of operation.

    On this one -- I really have no idea. I don't use Gnome on my Solaris 10 systems. I'm sticking with CDE for that, because Gnome just uses too much in the way of CPU assets.
    It may simply be that it needs to gather enough virtual memory to run the logout function. Or it may think that there is something critical running which needs to be shut down cleanly first.
    If CDE ever goes away totally, I'll move back to something like tvwm or something similar -- even if I have to chase down the sources and compile it myself. :-) I *really* miss some of the features of the one which preceded CDE -- OpenWindows.

    You have what I can offer above.
    Now to see what others suggested before I could get to this.
    Enjoy,         DoN.
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