OT: R134a Conversion

They are thinking about CO2, 1000# head pressures! Tinkerers all,

1000#s a/c 20,000#s hydrogen for fuel cell 48v 500 amp electrics

not enough recoverable identifiable material left to determine the cause of the accident.

No, they will have an explosion-proof 'black box' in each car, with the owners financial information, so they will be able to bill the estate for the incidental damage and cleanup costs!!

Jim

A good place to start for info on various refrigerants is

There is a link there to which lists Freeze 12 as 20% R142b and 80% R134a.

-- Regards, Carl Ijames carl.ijames at verizon.net

The majority of info I saw recently was related to automotive A/C conversion. I haven't worked with any of these products, so I don't have any performance info.

I don't know the contents of the replacement refrigerants, other than that I've read that they're hydrocarbon types.

In addition to Freeze12, there are several other brands (maybe slightly different formulas, or maybe the same), such as Red Tek, R12a and Enviro-Safe. Some of them are cheap when priced in can/cases.. there are also ebay auctions offering the conversion products. Various conversion products are also available in the large bottles.

I can't seem to find one of the charts I saw, but the 12a was shown to require fewer ounces of charge, while providing better/higher performance.

Apparently there is also a R22a for 22 systems.

>> What is freeze 12 ?

OOH! 48 volts, 500 amps. Sounds like a welder to me. ers

On Fri, 22 Jul 2005 12:29:52 -0400, Bill wrote:

Try one of the hydrocarbon based R12 replacements. No ozone depletion, almost no greenhouse effect, legal to do yourself, and no fine or jail if you foul up and vent some to atmosphere. Also no oil change, or seal change needed. Just have your R12 removed, then put R134a adapter fittings on your vehicle, now you can legally do the rest yourself. Then evacuate and put in the hydrocarbon stuff. Try the duracool HC-12a from

Don't use the el-cheapo Enviro-Safe, it contains too little propane in the mix and doesn't cool as well as it should. I resurrected an old E-150 R12 system with it. It works and is better than nothing, butonly get about 45 degree air out of the vents. Gonna convert to one of the better brands soon. You can get a good R134 gauge set for about 50 bucks. Do a google or get the HarborFreightTool gauge set. Follow the manufacturers instructions, but you want about 35 psi low side and I think that gives about 150-175 psi high side. Real simple, inexpensive, and if your system leaks, top-offs are easy, cheap, and don't mess up the atmosphere. As far as safety, this is no different than having a Ronson butane lighter or Bernz-o-matic propane torch. If you had a 16oz. propane bottle that took three years to leak to empty, would you be worried? Your engine compartment is open to the air and often has a 60 mph wind blowing through it. A slow leak will never create a fire hazard. Just don't smoke while you are installing it. Germany and Australia use lots of hydrocarbon refrigerants, and they have more fires and toxic poisonings from the Freon formulas than the hydrocarbons.

Randy

Certainly not, but sudden venting from a broken hose (seen it happen) or from an auto accident might be a different matter?

Not after you crash into something and breach the AC system.

I am willing to listen to reason and be convinced, but the idea of flammable refrigerant under the hood of an auto does not sound terribly safe to me.

Vaughn

You're welcome. There's actually been a few changes since I last updated the site. But I've not had any time to think about doing anything about it.

Wayne Cook Shamrock, TX

Gasoline isn't a refrigerant but plenty flamable and there's a lot more potential BTU's available under the hood.

Teri

Vaughn wrote:

Then you need to see George Goble's page where he shows how flammable the OIL in R12 in an automotive system is! see :

for more info, and at the bottom

of

you can see him venting an operating R-12 system and demonstrating that the mineral oil burns like a blowtorch!

Jon

FWIW, I've done exactly 1(ONE) conversion to 134a and it's been working fine. I did replace the O-rings on all the Ford snaplock connectors, they were all hard as rocks and were probably the reason for the loss of the R12 charge to start with. The accumulator needed to be changed out, not being compatible with the new refrigerant. It held vacuum for several hours after that so I figured it was good to go. The oil type was changed, too. This year I had to overhaul the compressor clutch and bearing, it was getting kind of noisy. I found the specs on the Warner site. $20 for the pulley bearing off the net, the tools were free loans from Autozone. I stuck in a couple of those VOV orfice tubes for the front and rear units, I get about 40 degree temps with outside temps at 95 degrees. They do help with holding down the inside temps when idling at lights, the inside temps go up about 10 degrees, but quickly cool down again when I get going above 30 MPH. Without the VOVs, it went up at least 30 degrees at a light.

The reason I went with 134a was what you say, the pros won't touch "alternative" refrigerants with a 10' pole. If the A/C went out while I was on the road, I might have to drive up to 900 miles to get home before I could fix it. With the present over-100 degree temps that would not be acceptable.

Stan

Interesting.. what does this license allow one to do, and to not do?

John

If the OP is in the United States, he's best advised that HC refrigerants are illegal in vehicles used on public roads and highways.

It is illegal to vent -any- mobil AC system to the atmosphere in the United States. Doesn'y matter if it's filled with Skippy brand peanut butter, it -has- to be recovered and recycled or disposed of in the per-scribed by law manner.

Any substitute refrigerant used in a mobil AC system in the United States requires service fittings unique to -that- refrigerant. There is no unique service fitting for HC based refrigerants. In the long run, the OP should he take your advice, could be setting himself up for the liability of contaminating someone's recovered refrigerant supply (fair market value) and the disposal costs of same.

aka; a "sham" retrofit.

As long as you only drive the vehicle on your own property. (United States)

What about the documented cases listed by the EPA of personal injury to service personnel who've been injured because HC charged systems weren't properly labeled?

Problem is; the evaporator is in the passenger compartment. No 60 mph wind blowing thru it.

Their systems are designed to use HC based refrigerants. The safety of the HC refrigerant has been demonstrated in such cases as the mentioned overseas uses, HC has not been demonstrated safe in the United States for mobil AC systems and as such, remains illegal to use on public roadways.

It (safety) has yet to be demonstrated by those who hawk the HC blends, so it remains illegal to use in mobil AC systems in the United States.

Can you name one vehicle built in the last 30 years where the fuel system plumbing is run thru the passenger compartment?

So; propelling the mineral oil with a blend of iso-propane/iso-butane results in a *smaller* fire?

If one wishes to repair or service mobile air conditioning systems in the US and get paid to do so, this license is required. As a side benefit, one with this license can purchase R12 in small cans.

Dale Scroggins

Very cool. I'll be looking into this soon..

Many thanks,

John

Sounds like the a/c service lobby got to somebody.

Ted