On Wed, 12 May 2004 07:19:49 +0000 (UTC), "Brain Damage" vaguely proposed a theory ......and in reply I say!: uncap my header address to reply via email
I am not into Tp BP fights, but _please_ remove the heaps of _STUFF_ above your "one-liner" before bottom posting. It's far less likely to alienate
Sometimes in a workplace you find snot on the wall of the toilet cubicles. You feel "What sort of twisted child would do this?"....the internet seems full of them. It's very sad
On Wed, 12 May 2004 07:19:49 +0000 (UTC), "Brain Damage" vaguely proposed a theory ......and in reply I say!: uncap my header address to reply via email
I am not into Tp BP fights, but _please_ remove the heaps of _STUFF_ above your "one-liner" before bottom posting. It's far less likely to alienate
Sometimes in a workplace you find snot on the wall of the toilet cubicles. You feel "What sort of twisted child would do this?"....the internet seems full of them. It's very sad
The first people there were the Canaanites, whose capital was Jericho. This was around 3000BC, over a thousand years before the founding of the Jewish faith. The early Jews moved into the area from Sumer.
Palestine (as I'm sure you know) was set up as a British mandate after the First World War from the former Ottoman Arab territories. The 'capital' of Palestine has no real meaning, as it was never a sovereign state.
That didn't "just" happen -- the man was found, dead, more than a month ago. Someone saw fit to get that video out to the public just now. I won't speculate as to why this particular time was chosen.
Mine, too.
Your goverment sure has it -- just as they've had it at least since WWII. It divides the world into "Americans" and "non-humans", and we non-humans toe the line, or suffer the consequences.
Not picking on you in particular, but I see an awful lot of this attitude from Americans these days: if a small group of, say, Arabs, commit a crime, then all Arabs are murdering scum who ought to be killed immediately. Gunner reposted an article the other day, that said that since we know that criminals need firm treatment, not coddling, and there have been Muslim terrorists who have attacked American targets, the USA should treat the entire Muslim world even more harshly than it does.
Palestine. Note spelling. The Palestinians are from the region currently occupied by Israel, some from within the 1948 borders, some from outside. The fact that there's a common label for these folks doesn't entitle them to their own country, but they are a distinct group, namely the people who had been living in that area for generations prior to the founding of the state of Israel. Pretending they don't exist is disingenuous, as is pretending that their commonalities with neighboring peoples somehow abridge their right to live on land that their families have farmed for generations.
Considering that some of them were forcibly removed from their land (not "their" in the sense of some imaginary group rights, but "their" as in land that was individually owned by individual families), at least some of them absolutely do have a homeland. The problem is that that homeland is Israel. If all of the displaced persons from the wars of Israel's founding were permitted to return home Israel would no longer be Jewish. This is the central problem that has to be resolved in order for there to be peace in the region. The only way to do it without destroying Israel is to compensate the families whose land was taken, in return for those families giving up their claim to the land taken by Israel. BTW, don't believe the propaganda about families voluntarily leaving - some did, but many more were forced out at bayonet point, as Israel's leading historian has admitted. The idea that these people should not hold a grudge against Israel is inane.
Really? I heard "found dead April 9th", but we all know how reliable news reporters are, of course. That may well have been wrong. It's no big deal, anyway -- he's another casualty of the ugly, immoral side of war, just like those Afghanis and Iraqis who, it has come to light, have been beaten to death in captivity by American soldiers.
Before 1776 there was no american nation, the colonies had British subjects and people from various nations. The honorable thing to do was lay down our arms and worship King George.
Your attempt to equate the term "homeland" with the notion of a sovereign state is rather novel. The Palestinians may not have ever had a sovereign state, but they have lived in the area known as Palestine for centuries. It was the land they called "Home".
So, If I understand you correctly, this is your position:
It's OK and a good thing that a group of people (Jews), who by and large weren't born there and historically had no nation or sovereign state in the region variously known as palestine/judea/canaan/israel, whatever, staked their moral claim to the region, fought for it, and set up a sovereign state upon it.
Now that they have done this, It is NOT a good thing that another group of people (Let's call them Palestinians), for the sake of simplicity) who by and large were born there and historically had been a part of a larger empire which had ruled over that land for centuries, are staking their moral claim to the self-same region, and are fighting to set up a sovereign state upon it.
You don't feel this comprises any kind of double standard on your part?
You accurately recount the struggle over Palestine and yet feel that Israel has a right to exist? You describe the theft of Palestine and say that the thieves can keep the loot? Why is it OK to compensate someone for their stolen property when the property should be returned? Do you also deny the Palestinians the right to take Palestine back by force?
Why the concern that Israel will no longer be "Jewish". There was little concern that South Africa was no longer "white" after the fall of Apartheid.
History is a litany of atrocities committed in the name of justice. Perfect justice is not to be had in this world. There is no way to return the land to the Palestinians without another holocaust. Compensation is the next best thing.
Jews have legitimate concerns about antisemitism. 2000 years of randomly being slaughtered on the whims of their host societies has left them with an entirely justified sense of paranoia. Only a Jewish state can secure the future of the Jewish people. I'd have gone for giving them a chunk of the Amazon basin, but nobody asked me, and their religious nutcase faction would never have gone for that anyway.
Give up on the notion of a perfect solution and do the best that's possible with the human mess at hand. That's the only way to create the conditions for people to get on with the day to day business of making their lives better.
No idea. But the Palistinians were already there, while the Jews are newcomers. Right??? So why are all the Pal muckamucks from other countries? Ever look at a map of the area?
Gunner
That rifle hanging on the wall of the working-class flat or labourer's cottage is the symbol of democracy. It is our job to see that it stays there. - George Orwell
PolyTech Forum website is not affiliated with any of the manufacturers or service providers discussed here.
All logos and trade names are the property of their respective owners.