Question about old International crawler

So yesterday we were out at an "agratainment" event where there was some old tractors. I went up to an International crawler to see what
kind of engine it was. Well, there was a carb, 4 sparkplugs and a distributer. Went over to the other side and there was 4 fuel injecters and an injection pump. Went back around and the carb and sparkplugs were still there (:
What's going on? I had never heard of such a thing.
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semidiesel?

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I do believe that some of the old diesels like that were started on distilate fuels such as gas and then once warmed up some would be switched over to diesel fuel.
tim
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distilate
diesel
This method of starting was quite common for International crawlers and farm tractors such as the 450s. Steve
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TSJABS wrote:

A very likely explanation. This was common on many truck and implement engines of the period. I don't know about the IH crawler, specifically.
Also, conversion units, without injectors, were available to allow regular gasoline engines to burn kerosene or light Diesel oil .. AFTER they were warmed up on gasoline. This was popular during the war, presumably because gasoline was rationed more than heavier oils.
Dan Mitchell ==========
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Daniel A. Mitchell wrote:

During the war (WW II) gasoline was rationed but service stations could get cleaning solvent (kerosene ?) and it was not rationed. Gasoline engines would run on solvent if they were warmed up first. (been there - done that)
Bill K7NOM
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Bill Janssen wrote:

Yeah, but they damn sure wouldn't pass a smog test (:

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Jim Stewart wrote:

If you didn't want anyone to read your license plate you just pulled out the choke a little :-)
Bill K7NOM
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On Wed, 13 Oct 2004 01:13:22 GMT, bill Janssen

The electronics super at the airport when I worked there, filled up at the wrong (diesel) pump one day, fortunately he still had enough gas that the car would still run. The maintenance shop explained why his car smoked so badly and had little power but they refused to drain the tank for him - made him drive it till he had burned it through. After that he was known as smokey. Gerry :-)} London, Canada
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Gerald Miller wrote:

Actually, such a system can be made to run fairly well, with the right carburetor and adjustments. The old systems being discussed were designed for the purpose. Still, it was a poor substitute. Just dumping kerosene into the gas won't work at all well, as you've discovered.
Internal combustion engines can also be made to burn most any combustible gas, fluid, or even combustible particulates like smoke. Recall also that the first Diesels were designed to burn powdered coal (they had many problems, but they did run). With many odd fuels, you have to partially burn (bake) them in a 'retort' to produce volumes of combustable gas or smoke, then feed that to the engine. In the war they used wood, coconut shells, an assortment of oils, and all sorts of other materials to run gasoline engines. Not well, but they ran. It amazing what you can do if you HAVE to.
Dan Mitchell ==========
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A discussion of this effect (running a truck on burning wood in a retort) is found in "Thirty Seconds over Tokyo" when the protagonist is transported halfway across china in one of those contraptions.
Jim
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wrote:

Long before the war there were engines that were equipped to run on kerosine with a bit of water after being warmed up on gasoline. In the late '50s I worked in a small lumber mill. On days when there was no work, the Owners son and I (Owner too, sometimes) used to fool around with an old steel wheeled Massey/Harris that was built this way, but since the manifold heat system was rusted solid, all we ever ran it on was gasoline, IIRC it had two small tanks for gas and water, and a much larger one for kerosene. Gerry :-)} London, Canada
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The old Internationals had an extra valve that opened up the combustion chamber to reduce compression and expose a spark plug. You started the engine on gasoline in cold weather then after it was warmed up you changed over to diesel by closing that extra valve and injecting fuel The whole idea was for cold weather starting. Old Cats used a starting engine instead of a starter motor and battery. You battery started the little gasoline motor that would warm up the main engine through common coolant and exhaust. Once warmed up sufficiantly you engaged the bendix on the main flywheel and started the large diesel. Randy

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Randy Zimmerman wrote:

Thanks for the explaination. I had assumed that the gas side was for cold weather starting, but I couldn't figure out how they could lower the compression ratio to do it. Some of those old engineers were pretty clever.

That I've seen done. A friend had an ancient Cat scraper and he started it up for us once in the dead of winter.

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On Mon, 11 Oct 2004 23:12:26 GMT, "Randy Zimmerman"

It is called a pony engine.

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Ready for a story? When I was in the Navy Seabees I was young and cockey and thought I knew everything. The Chief told me to go start the dozer in the corner of the yard, he put me in my place... Once that was done he showed me how to start the pony engine and engage it watching for oil pressure in the main engine before starting it on gas, then switching it to fuel. Man that dozer could do alot of work. Rick
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Well, the old OLD cats used a two-cylinder opposed gasoline engine that was started with a pull rope around its exposed flywheel (like the outboard marine engines of the same vintage). Yes, it was called a "pony engine". The exhaust from the pony engine warmed the main Diesel intake manifold. I believe a Bendix gear on the pony engine would engage the flywheel on the main Diesel by pulling a lever, and then you shut down the pony. I don't think any of the International Harvester TD series ever had a pony engine. Dave
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The TD24 did on 1950 or so vintage. The TD25 had a gas start/full diesel engine.as did most of all the IH heavy equipment back in the old days. We had one of each in the Operating Engineers apprenticeship program I went through.
The gas start/full diesel had a bizarre head design. the simple explanation is: It had a lock-out lever that when pulled opened a chamber that included a spark plug in it. You turned on the gas, set the throttle and started it with a standard style 24v starter. After the engine got a little warmed up, you turned on the diesel fuel and when the exhaust started loading up, you threw the lever and that shut off the gas/head chamber and the engine started running normally on diesel.
Most of the old machines I ran over the years that had IH engines were of the gas start/full diesel design. Galion Graders, Austin Western Graders, an old Buc-Erie crane, some of those morphodite military machines that were combo scraper/dozer/loader things of the 1940's-50's era had'em.
Brings back the old days and makes me feel my age.
Byrd
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On Wed, 13 Oct 2004 23:15:17 -0700, "hmHAT"

Congrats for the best explanation IMO (that I saw) in this thread. I have two of these machines, a TD24 dozer, and an Austin Western (AKA arful western) motor grader. Some additional advantages - these engines develop enough power when running on gas to pull the tractor in low-low gear. That can be a big help if the machine is blocking the road and you need to get past it to pick up more fuel. :-) They're also easy to bleed, just run on gas while slowly cracking the diesel throttle until bled. The grader starts on a regular 12V car battery even when cold. It has a mag, but the dozer, a little newer ;-) has a distributor etc. One of the reasons I got the dozer cheap was that the previous owner found it ridiculously hard to start. There must have been a hundred empty ether cans littering the ground around its parking spot. I asked him why the gas starting system had been disabled, and he said: "what gas starting system?". All it needed was points and a coil (and a transmission and heads). He was incredulous when he saw it fire up just by turning the key. Another reason he wanted rid of it was lack of maneuverability. One of his BIL types had adjusted the track clutches so that they didn't work, and the owner had been turning the machine by using the two-speed track drives alone. Turning circle was about 5 acres. Once tuned up, it pivots in its own length, but makes a reaaaaally big divot. :-)
Wayne
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LOL. :^)
Jim
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