rack and pinion

Thanks for pointing this out. I'll call them and ask about shipping charges on that and other items (more on other items below).

At the Harbor Freight site, the mill/drill is one of a number of items they say come from "Central Machinery". I clicked on "View more Central Machinery items" and a few things caught my eye, including: (1) Item 40102-3 VGA, "8 in 3 multipurpose mini machine" for $189. Just change 47158 in the URL above to 40102. This seems like a fancier version of the Unimat 1, but at about half the price. (2) Item 39743-1 VGA, "Mini multipurpose machine (mill/drill/lathe)", $399. I can't really tell but this seems a lot sturdier than the Unimat 1, and only costs a little more. I don't know about shipping.

No, I have no measuring instruments except for a ruler, a tape measure and a plastic protractor. I don't even have a bathroom scale. I have a level in the toolbox.

Thanks for the critique of:

Greybeard said something about needing to make modifications in imported machines before they will work properly. I may not be qualified to do that.

From other postings over time, I understand that they sometimes have free shipping for purchases over a certain amount -- if you have the magic code number for the month. I also understand that it does not exist for December. Keep your eyes open for the next posting of someone asking for it (next year) and someone replying.

1/125th HP motors. If anything, perhaps weaker than the Unimat-1, though it appears to be made of a bit more metal. same restrictions -- "soft metals". I would skip this just as I would skip the Unimat 1.

Something around 0.4 HP -- better than the above. And you

*could* use it. But beware that while it is probably not too bad as a lathe, the milling function tends to be awkward. It is difficult to put things at the right height to allow the milling cutter proper access.

The lathe size is a bit smaller than the Compact-5, but certain things are rather klugy. An example is found on page 28 of the manual (which you can download in PDF form). The compound of the lathe has the tool holder as a single piece with the moving part of the compound, resulting in a lack of ability to adjust the angle of the tool independent of the angle of the compound motion (something important for threading).

Also -- it *can't* do left-hand threads. (I spent some time analyzing this a while back as a result of a question from someone else), and has no half-nuts so the threading is going to be a pain. There is only one leadscrew, and they don't say whether it is metric or inch, and very little in the way of choices of threads in either system. Also, the slowest spindle speed makes threading rather exciting, unless you do it without power, and fit a show-made crank to the spindle.

I tend to dislike 3-in-1 machines, and this is a primary example of why. Far better to get separate machines for milling and turning, so you can upgrade each when you discover it is needed, without losing the other capability.

Look at 47257-5 VGA on the same site for at least an inexpensive start in both inch and metric measuring capability. A micrometer can be more accurate, but this is quick to use, and covers a lot more range than a single micrometer, as well as having the ability to convert between inch and mm at the touch of a button.

This mostly involves disassembling parts, cleaning out sand and grit, filing off burrs on the edges of dovetails and such, replacing cheap soft metal screws with higher quality ones (as needed), and reassembling, lubricating as you go.

And this is not required by *all* import machines -- but those from Mainland China, India, and (to a lesser extent) Taiwan. Japanese equipment is excellent, these days. Austrian, German, Swiss, and UK equipment are all good to excellent. (And way out of reach, pricewise. :-) Finding stuff actually made in the USA is harder, and the Taig is one of the few examples in the reach of hobbists.

Good Luck, DoN.

Consists mostly of disassembling and removing the burrs, then putting it back together. Not a biggie, and gives an idea of how the machines really work. The only thing I don't disassemble is the spindle, I figure if that's out, it's time to chalk it up as a waste. (Unless, of course, I got it as a freebie from someone that gave up on it.)

The 0 - 3" micrometer set that seems to be on permanent sale for $19.95 at our local store isn't bad, couple that with the above caliper, (of which I have four, two of them at the $11.99(?) price of the one day sale) and it should handle most measuring requirements. It's not the equivalent of the Starrett Master Venier or their .0001" micrometers, but you aren't paying for the Starretts either. I've been "abusing" one of the chinese 1" mics for about ten years now, still seems pretty accurate but doesn't have a nice feel to it. Kinda clunky after my 436P set.

The Taig is probably the best bang for the buck available. Even with all the attachments, you're still in the $500 range and what you can do with it is limited only by your imagination. Just so I'm not steering anyone astray though, by the time you spend $250, you have a running machine. Basic means exactly that, the basics around which to build up a running lathe. But it's a good one.

One removes burrs with a file or with a grinder? (I have neither, at the moment).

I'm always glad for an excuse to take something apart, as long as I can put it back together properly.

Instead of the more complicated milling machines you mentioned, you really should consider buying an armstrong mill first. After you've learned to use it, you may find that you have no need for the Homer or the Harbor Freight or any of the other mills.

John Martin

Who sells them? What do they normally cost?

I did a Google search for "armstrong mill" and "armstrong milling machine" and found out that Armstrong is a very common name for people and cities and companies in all areas of commerce, but nothing about the milling machine. I then did a dejanews search for articles containing the exact phrase "armstrong mill" that had appeared in rec.crafts.metalworking and found exactly one thread ("Old Armstrong Mill - what to look for?") from

1995, which discussed what seemed to be an antique.

Probably a metaphor for using hand tools such as a chisel, drill and files.

A file was just what I had in mind.

Buying a file, and learning how to use it, should come before any consideration of a milling machine. Even a cheap one.

But that's just my opinion. Others may disagree.

John Martin

AKA Nicholson mill. I usually think of an Armstrong mill as a hacksaw... :^) --Glenn Lyford

snipped-for-privacy@aol.com (JMartin957) writes:

Thanks for the clarification and opinion. If you don't mind, I'd like to understand your opinion a little better by asking a few questions. Suppose I decide to design a course entitled "File 101" and teach it to myself. (1) Is there a textbook? Does it come with a set of tests that I can administer to myself to determine whether I should be allowed to move on to the milling machine or whether I should be left back and have to take File 101 over again? (2) Apart from the textbook and tests, I will have to purchase some lab materials for the course, presumably one or more files. Do I need just one file to get what I need out of the course or do I need to get a set of files with various properties and characteristics? (In this connection, also see (9) below). How much should I expect to pay for the lot of them? (3) Presumably, I also need something to use the file(s) on. What might that be? Perhaps an assortment of different pieces of metal in different conditions requiring treatment with the file(s). Where do I get them? (4) I doubt that there is a shop that sells metal with burrs on it to people who need practice removing burrs with a file, so I probably need to learn how to take a piece of metal and modify it in some way so that I can practice filing it. So, let's postulate that the first thing one learns in the course is how to take a perfectly good piece of metal leave it in a condition which requires the use of the file(s) to correct. I find it easy to believe that it takes no special training to ruin a perfectly good piece of metal, but since I am designing a course and need a predictable set of exercises for me to administer to myself, probably the first thing the course should do is explain how to ruin metal in fairly specific ways. (5) Since we are assuming that knowledge of the use of a file is prior to knowledge of fancier tools, the tools that I can use to take perfectly good pieces of metal and turn them into pieces of metal that require improvement using files are probably somewhat limited. What tools would be ok to use along with files? Well, given the other responses to the question of armstrong tools, I would guess we are talking about handtools, including chisel, drill, files, hacksaw. So, the question (2) is naturally widened to include these other tools. I'm under the impression that no one ever thinks they have enough tools, so it is important to define the scope of the course carefully and choose the tools accordingly. (6) Once the knowledge is imparted of how to ruin a piece of metal in order to leave it in a predictable condition requiring a particular technique to correct, it then becomes possible to focus on those particular corrective techniques. That might be considered the proper content of the course. (7) Next, there needs to be a segment of the course, probably after enough experience has been gained with (1)-(6), which deals with cultivating the ability to determine: (a) Whether it is actually possible to correct a given condition. (b) Assuming it is possible, how much effort is involved. (c) Whether that much effort is worth it in a given context. (8) That sounds like a satisfactory course on the file itself, so far as technique is concerned. As far as the matter of competence in the use of files is concerned, that would probably be an adequate preparation for moving on to the milling machine. There might be further sections on applications to design and planning of projects to produce work using a file. (9) I will merely mention the pedagogical issue of whether, in teaching myself File 101, I should cover topics, possibly requiring investment in more tools and materials, that will broaden my general understanding but which I am unlikely to actually need in practice.

Now that I think about it, I vaguely recall that I have in the past read discussions about using only handtools, and that there is actually a school of thought devoted to this high art. I'm not sure whether I read it here or on a woodworking group. I've also seen a TV program on PBS featuring someone who is a virtuoso at this kind of work. I think he has written one or more books, which I may have looked at.

That being the case, I need some further clarification from snipped-for-privacy@aol.com (JMartin957), namely: why is it, exactly, that you feel knowledge of the file is prior to knowledge of the milling machine? Is it because: (A) you think that after a piece of work is turned out on the milling machine, it might need some touching up with a file and one needs to know how to do that without ruining the piece? Or, (B) because you generally prefer handtools and perhaps also regard it as a higher form of craftsmanship than the use of machine tools?

Likely several, look for high school texts in second-hand shops, I picked one up not too long ago and found it both educational and entertaining. The one I found is "Machine Tool Practices", ISBN 0-13-541848-8, I paid $1.98 at Half Price Books in FW, TX. Your results may vary.

In the case of the above, yes.

While one would suffice to start the course, several will be of use long after you own said milling machine. To wit: Medium and coarse flat files (mill or mill bastard), a medium and coarse square, a triangular, a coarse round, a half-round, and a chainsaw file (no particular size, since you're using it for general stuff rather than a saw chain).

New, I have no idea. I buy used, and usually pay a buck each, with this caveat: if you run your thumb over it and it doesn't want to grab, it's dull, and not worth the buck. If you look at it and see a shine from the top of every tooth, it's dull, too. Buy at least one or two new Nicholson (non-cheapistani) files so you have a good idea what a sharp file should work like.

AKA, scrap iron. Plain old mild steel works well for this. In a pinch, you can even buy it at hardware stores in flats, angles and rounds.

Junkyard, side of the road, tagsales, dumpster diving. It's a hobby in and of itself.

The easiest way is to set out to make something, be it useful or decorative, out of said scrap, which will nearly never be of the proper shape for the intended use.

First step is to mark out with a scribe or marker (depending on how accurate your final piece needs to be) the desired end shape.

The next step is to get it close to that shape by applying a coarse brute force method. A hacksaw is typical, though people have been known to resort to torches and bandsaws, or even several of the above. The idea here is to just miss the line you will eventually file to.

All of these processes usually leave a coarse surface more than adequate for cleaning up with a file.

All of these will be of use, but particularly the hacksaw. Buy a good one with a high tension adjustment and several different tooth counts of US made name brand blades. The difference between this and a cheap saw frame holding cheapistani blades is an education in itself.

I'd pay about $20 for a good hacksaw frame, and maybe that much again on several packages of good quality blades.

Indeed, and this is where said tech school text will be of particualr help, but you are also more than welcome to run particular questions past the accumulated wisdom of the group.

I will merely note that while the textbook I mention is nominally about machines tools, they start by teaching you how to file. A review of the google archives searching for the words: apprentice, file, metalworking should turn up a lot of relevant discussion, particularly if you add "Bastow" to the list. A bunch of this may also be on yarchive.net/metal as well.

Unlikely. In fact one of the best ways to learn is to actually set out to make something practical.

AKA, Neanderthals. Less common in metalworking, due to the amount of effort needed to remove large amounts of metal, though they do exist. They tend to work on smaller, high value projects, and will frequently respond to the title of "jeweler".

HTH, and I think your approach to the subject is commendable, I like your thoroughness, and suspect you'll do well with it.

Later, --Glenn Lyford

Or (C) because the simple act of buying a file and using how to use it might show the people on this newsgroup that you are really interested in working metal and not just reading, writing and asking questions about it?

You obviously like reading, and you obviously like thinking about the consequences of what you are considering. Both of those qualities are commendable. At some point, though, you actually have to do something. Metalworking is a art in which skills have to be built on other skills. To talk about buying a milling machine when you don't own a file and don't know how to use one is like discussing the fine points of marathon running before you have learned to walk. It's asinine.

Buy any of the metalworking books that also discuss hand tool methods. You've already been given some suggestions. Read them, buy some of the basic hand tools and learn to use them, and try making something. Anything. Perhaps then you'll be in a better position to know what type of milling machine will fit your needs.

John Martin

And a Dremel tool is a "portable Bridgeport"

I understand that an apprentice was first given one or two files, and two pieces of steel. The task was to make a cube from one piece, and a hole through the other piece to accept that cube in any orientation, with no visible light around the cube as it passed through the hole.

No, I haven't done that, but I've done a lot of work with files before I ever had access to even a lathe, let alone a milling machine, and I still use them for various things to this day, now that I have lots of powered machine tools ready to hand.

I agree that you really *do* need to learn to use files and other hand tools to make things -- so you will know how to use them to repair the power tools once you get them -- either older tools which need repair, or cheap Chinese tools which need touch-up before they are depended upon for producing parts.

In addition to the files, you ideally should get a file card (sort of like a curry comb for critters) to keep the teeth from getting clogged.

Your long-winded belittling of the suggestion make me wonder about the amount of time I have spent answering your questions here.

DoN.

Though in a pinch, you can also use a piece of copper or brass, and run it sideways along the angle of the file teeth, which will quickly wear it into a sort of sawtooth shape taylor made to fit the file. Sometimes works better than the file card. An old plumbing fitting or empty rifle shell works well if you mash it flat in a vise first. --Glenn Lyford

I have done some things. I took a crash shop course in a physics department a couple of decades ago in which I learned to use a lathe to make a plumb bob which unscrewed into two parts. I also used the milling machine on my own to take a piece of scrap aluminum (C shaped) and made it into a keyboard with pushbutton switches for a computer I was trying to design at the time.

One of the most valuable lessons I learned from trying to design and build the computer from scratch was how costly it can be to invest money in a project without having thought it through completely. Since then, I'm a lot more careful. Having experienced the difference, I prefer to err on the side of caution.

Continuing with things I've done: as a result of reading Gingery's book on the charcoal foundry, I built a little coffee can foundry, spent months collecting discarded soda cans from the side of the road, consulted with the local fire department about whatever regulations might apply and eventually melted some aluminum. I also built some frames for metal casting in sand. I didn't get further than that because I had to move and all my tools wound up in storage, where they are still located. So, at the moment, I have no tools except those in a little toolbox that the landlord left in the apartment. That has been the situation for a few years and I can't do anything about getting the stuff out of storage. Fortunately, it isn't costing me anything.

Another thing I did was to design and build a blackboard that folds up into a shopping cart that could be used to carry the materials I needed to give lectures. (Never mind that it worked, but not very well, and looked ridiculous.) That was mostly woodworking with a saw and hand drill, which I also used it with an abrasive disk to cut some carriage bolts. I also used a metal brush attachment to the drill to remove some paint and rust from an old EICO oscilloscope. Also, when I was planning to give some public lectures on mathematics at a local Barnes and Noble (see

and examining an old overhead projector I'd been lugging around for a decade or so, I accidentally broke one of the components, a thermostat that shut off the machine when the temperature got too high. I managed to locate the company that used to make it, get a schematic and parts list for the projector and find a vendor that sold a suitable replacement for the switch. I also realized that it was using asbestos, and found a supplier who provided me with a safer material to replace it. This took a few months. After that, I was able to use it in my lectures.

I've done other things, not very impressive of course, but I would like to emphasize that I discussed most of them on this and other newsgroups, along with my progress on them. So, if you have the impression that I never do anything, you are mistaken.

The simple fact is that, for several reasons, it is a lot harder for me to do things than it is for most of the other readers of this group. If I'm not progressing quickly, I'm not happy about that either, but it is the best I can do under the circumstances. I also know that I succeed occasionally and when I do there is nothing quite like it.

How do you know I don't know how to use one? I have used files. I just don't happen to have any at the moment, since they are all in storage. Oh, I forgot: a few years before taking the crash course in the machine shop at the physics department, I audited a few sessions of a class on metalworking at the Museum of Fine Arts in Boston. I designed a certain sculpture based on the Barromean Rings (you might know them as the Ballantine beer rings, i.e. three rings which can't be separated but such that no two of them are actually linked, i.e., if you cut out any one of the rings, the other two aren't linked), cut out the parts with a hacksaw, and spent a lot of time smoothing them out and trying to adjust their shapes to something I found aesthetically pleasing with a set of little files. I was literally sculpting with the files.

Maybe you are referring to my earlier question about removing burrs from parts of Harbor Freight machines, where I asked whether I should use a file or a grinder, and mentioned that I have neither. That was probably a stupid question, but it was motivated by the following considerations: (a) I don't really know anything about the parts of the imported machine that are going to need modification, neither their nature nor their exact condition nor how much care will be required in modifying them, given the uses to which they will be put. (b) Although I'm aware of using a file to remove burrs, having done it myself, I haven't done it recently and the topic wasn't fresh in my mind. (c) Even so, I've always regarded it as something one does to avoid getting cut by the burrs, not as something one does to protect or improve machinery, and therefore it is at least conceivable that some other method might be recommended when it is not simply a matter of cosmetics and of not getting cut. (d) Finally, from a strictly logical point of view, the fact that one *can* use a file to remove burrs doesn't mean one can't optionally use something else instead. The idea that one might use a grinder occurred to me off the top of my head, partly because I had been wondering whether I ought to get one. If it is a bad idea to use a grinder to fix the internals of Harbor Freight machines, that doesn't indicate that I don't know anything about files: it indicates that I don't know anything about grinders. And in fact, I don't, never having used one, even though I read a little about them in Joe Martin's Tabletop Machining.

Neat. There is a book by Ehrenfeucht entitled, "The cube made interesting", which includes 3-d glasses for the anaglyphs in it. One of them is a picture of a cube 31 inches on a side being made to pass through a hole in a cube 30 inches on a side.

I think you are assuming that I wasn't serious. That assumption is incorrect.

I know that I don't know much about metalwork, so I always leave open the possibility, when someone says I need to learn something, that there is a lot more to learn about it than might be apparent to me. So, I just tried to be systematic about finding out what it was and how to learn it, given that I was also going to have to teach it to myself. Now that I've read the replies, I'm satisfied that I do know how to use a file.

Regarding the investment of your time and effort answering my questions, both are greatly appreciated, as is all of the the help I've received on this newsgroup.

Correction: It was a jeweler's saw.