Small Drill Chucks - Your Favorite?

On 6 Jul 2004 21:25:07 GMT, Charles A. Sherwood wrote:


Thanks. Good idea except I'm holding .010" wires right now and the sizes will vary from ~.005" and up.
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They do make different size collets!
chuck
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On 7 Jul 2004 14:44:33 GMT, Charles A. Sherwood wrote:

So...find me one that goes down to .005". Hey, I'll make it easier for you, let's double the diameter.
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The collet set for my Levin lathe starts at .004 and increments .004 larger for each collet. Actually, the first collet is .003937 and subsequent ones increase ar the rate of .003937. And yes, I've used the smallest for paying work. Cheers, Wise Ass Eric
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On Wed, 07 Jul 2004 16:33:29 -0700, Eric R Snow wrote:

Actually, I knew Levin lathe collets ran about that small! I didn't have numbers, just general knowledge. I too was being a wise ass with my challenge because earlier in the thread, I already said I was holding .010" wire. I was pretty confident there was no such beast as a .010" Erikson collet :-)
How are the Levin collets held in the lathe? Collet nut like the Erikson et al? Drawn in from the rear (5C)? Is it a single angle, double, or more? Are the collets split from both ends and close fairly parallel independant of size? I was just wondering if I *could* adapt a Levin collet to the fixture.
I know the downside is that a collet and nut assembly would be too slow, hence the albrecht chuck we're using. So a draw type closer would be better and faster. Minimizing TIR is VERY important.
Thanks,
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The collets are similar to the 5C. The length to diameter ratio is different. These small collets are longer compared to the diameter than a 5C. Derbyshire makes and sells instrument lathes too and they are cheaper than Levin. Their collets have a runout not to exceed .0002. I don't have a current catalog but their number is 508 842 8319. The collets are drawn into the tapered spindle nose just like a 5C. These collets could easily be adapted to your fixture. If I was doing it I'd use air to pull it back. Or, the collet can be fixed and the tapered spindle nose pushed forward by air. You could buy an air collet closer from MSC for about $200.00. They sell one made by Eagle Rock, MSC part # 09148255. I have one of these that I've used for at least ten years now. It is a good unit. I am certain that a taper adapter could be made and then any collet smaller than 5C could be used. The advantage with this closer is that the collet never mover so holding a dead length is easy. You should be able to hold position within .0002 in all three axes. This assumes that the collet is not spinning. If it spins, you could still use the above fixture with a rotary union. Or, you could make your own lever or air drawbar. If you are making lots of these parts then an air actuated drawbar is great. Cheers, Eric
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Erickson makes a 1/32 collet and they claim a full 1/32 range for each collet so I'm reasonably sure it will go down to .010 Look up Erickson DA300 series collets.
BTW: loose the attitude. We are trying to help you. If you were not behaving like a jerk, I would actually pull my set out and try it.
chuck
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On 8 Jul 2004 15:26:47 GMT, Charles A. Sherwood wrote:

Hey Chuck,
First of all, it's lose, not loose, the attitude.
Second, I understand that most folks in this NG just wanna help. I appreciate that. Their are many lifetimes worth of useful information available from the participants and I try and provide useful information when I'm able. However, I litle patience for the OT banter, and wrong, incorrect and useless information. It is a waste of my time and wrong info sends me in search of a product, for example, that won't work. Yeah, shit happens and people make mistakes. No worries in those instances. But YOU, however, are convinced I can use use an Erickson DA300 series collet to hold a .005" and .010" wire! And, you tell me this without having ever done it!
Third, I will post a thorough public apology to you on this NG when you tell me (I'll take your word as an honorable gentleman) that you are able to successfully hold a .005" wire with your Erickson DA300 series 1/32 collet and provide the model/part number of that collet. You must hold the wire as a collet is intended. ie. the wire should be concentric with the collet and not pinched between the "flats". You should be able to pull on the wire once held with ~5-8 pounds of force and not have any slippage.
Your court, bud.
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I share your pain. It happens here everyday.

I think you have the wrong perspective about new groups. I look at them as a source for ideas; Not for proven solutions. I provided you with an idea that has high probability of working. A little reseach on your end will tell you if my suggestion will solve your problem. Perhaps just a phone call to erickson tech support. As is common with newgroups; You need to weed out the good suggestions from the bad ones.
From my perspective, You are requesting me to suggest a solution, test the solution to your specs and then provide you with part numbers so you can order it. Sounds to me like you need to hire a consultant !
chuck
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On 9 Jul 2004 15:46:08 GMT, Charles A. Sherwood wrote:

FWIW, I've been participating in NG for ~12 years. Finding ideas is one use. I also see them as way to prevent myself from "reinventing the wheel". I can modify or use an existing "wheel". There is no way you can convince me that you never do the same. I also use NGs to help others when I'm able. I provide PROVEN methods as well as possible alternatives.

I actually have a fair amount of experience with Erickson and other DA collets. My experience told me your suggestion actually had a very LOW probability of working. Hence, my original "thanks" and gentle reminder that I was using small wire. See my response to your first post.
You then pushed on about a variety of collet sizes and finally: "Erickson makes a 1/32 collet and they claim a full 1/32 range for each collet so I'm reasonably sure it will go down to .010 Look up Erickson DA300 series collets."
My experience again tells me that a 1/32 collet does NOT have a 1/32 range. Think about it. If it actually closed to zero, you'd have knife edges that matched perfectly in the middle. Your quote is stated as fact while giving yourself the ability to shift blame to Erickson for mis-stating their capabilities ("...they claim...").

Well, to double check myself and you, I did do online research and couldn't find a 1/32 collet with 1/32 range. You can get a 1/16 collet with 1/32 range thus having a min. capacity of 1/32. ...Long ways from .010"

I did and all was good until you perceived me to have a poor attitude. I'm not thin skinned and can take a lot of crap, righteous or not. Perhaps I was in a poor mood that night, but I got a bit pieved when you had the audacity to insult me, then tell me as fact a bunch of specs that I highly suspected to be wrong and (wasted my time) investigating.

Your perspective is wrong. Again, you made the above quote as fact ("Erickson makes..."). You then implied that you had a 1/32 collet ("If you were not behaving like a jerk, I would actually pull my set out and try it.") I am DEFYING you to prove yourself right.
I will not be ordering a collet and nut set up for this fixture. If you read one of my first post in this thread, you'll see that this is a production fixture and I already said a nut/spanner type holder is too slow and awkward.
My "specs" to which I asked you to test are not unreasonable. I just want to be sure you are complying to the "spirit" of the test and not just achieving positive results by testing to the "letter" of the test.
But fine, don't provide me with a part number, just try it and tell this NG whether or not you did it. And when you are unable, use that as a lesson to remind yourself that perhaps YOU should check out your "facts" before spewing them forth as gospel. You can also use the result as a reminder on how you should determine "high probability of working" without performing any analysis, statistical or otherwise.

I can't. I AM the consultant. However, I did try to "hire" you. Your payment was to be an apology. Apparently, that wasn't enough though.
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I've never seen an MT-JT arbor with a through hole in it. If I needed the services of such an animal, I'd use my Jacobs headstock chuck that's threaded 1 1/2"-8 in the lathe. For fixure use, I'd incorporate one of those square 5C collet blocks with a closer and a 5C collet of the appropriate size.
Stan
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On 2 Jul 2004 08:35:22 -0700, Stan Schaefer wrote:

ok. thanks.
If I needed

We tried a Jacobs threaded chuck first. It was a smaller thread (on a smaller chuck), but had too much runout.
For fixure use, I'd

The collet block closers that I've seen do not have a thru hole. The cam mechanism is in the middle. The nut and spanner closer would work, but that is too slow and (relatively) awkward to use for a production fixture. Thanks for the ideas though.
BTW, it's a .010" SST wire about 48" long. The fixture does "stuff" to the end of the wire sticking outta the chuck. Realize that when I have .010" parts to work with, I don't have a whole lot of room for tolerance issues. .0015" TIR on the Jacobs threaded chuck was too much.
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Hi, You do not mention what your spindle bore is. Why not use collets or drill drivers instead of a chuck?
Mill

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Hi there - the spinde bore is R8. I'm trying to use something that preserves as much of the spindle to workpiece space as possible.
I don't have a set of collets yet (using endmill holders).
I'm not sure I know what you mean by drill drivers - are they like bushings or something? The fewer interfaces I have between spinde and cutting tool, the better - can you elaborate on the drill drivers?
Thanks,
Sean
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    Albrecht makes one of that size. So does Jacobs.

    Albrecht (and other clone keyless chucks) tend to be a little longer than a Jacobs style keyed chuck of the same size.

    I've got Albrecht in 1/8, 1/4" and 1/2". I've got an older Rohm Albrecht clone in 3/8". I find little to choose between them. I've also got a 5/8" Albrecht clone from Poland which is not as smooth as the Albrecht and the Rohm, but still pretty good. (I also have a 1/2" Jacobs keyless, which is patterned after the Albrecht, but is not quite a clone. It is also quite good.

    I think that any of the Albrecht keyless clones will be roughly the same size for the same capacity -- and will all be noticeably larger than the equivalent capacity keyed Jacobs and clones.

    I have in a small lathe (Emco-Maier Compact-5/CNC) three keyless chucks on MT-1 arbors. The 1/8" Albrecht (very nice for tiny bits, down through #80.) The 1/4" Albrecht (nice general purpose for that 5" lathe), and the 3/8" Rohm. All are very good for their purposes. Any from 3/8" on down should hold drills down to #80 size. I also have a 1/4" Jacobs on a MT-1 arbor which I use when the 1/4" Albrecht is just a shade too long. (I also have some drill bits with MT-1 arbors, so I can totally skip the chucks for those. The one which I use most is a 6" long flute 0.380" diameter which is my best choice for drilling out the center of a workpiece prior to boring.
    The 1/2" Jacobs keyless is on the drill press.
    The 5/8" Albrecht clone is on my 12x24" Clausing lathe. I also have a 1/2" Albrecht for it in a MT-2->MT-3 adaptor sleeve.

    Track eBay. Most of these, except the 3/8" Rohm and the 1/2" Albrecht came from there. Those I have had since before eBay -- along with a Cameron Precision sensitive drill press with a 1/8" Albrecht which came with it when new. For most of them, I had to go to MSC to get a good quality arbor to adapt them to my machines.

    Also get a keyed chuck for the mill -- if you *ever* will use left-hand drill bits. (Those drill bits are particularly nice for drilling out broken screws. They tend to dig in as they break through the far end, and will often unscrew the remains of the screw.
    In any case -- the reason for the keyed chuck -- the keyless ones will self-release when you try to run them backwards, just as they self-tighten when used normally. (Yes -- you can get special versions which have an additional locking mechanism, but aside from the improved runout over the typical Jacobs style keyed chuck, they are a *lot* more affordable than the lockable Albrecht.
    Note, I don't know the HF 44991, so I don't know whether it is an R8 shank or some other. I do know that Albrecht chucks are made with integral shanks for R8 and for the 30, 40, and 50 taper shanks) which tend to be a bit shorter than the usual combination of a shank and a chuck joined by a Jacobs taper. However, these are also far from affordable -- except for a company making money from their tools. :-(
    I hope that this helps,         DoN.
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For the shortest chuck I would go with the Jacobs 8-1/2N 1/4" chuck and a 1/2"straight shank. I find they run very true and the ball bearing chucks hold up for long use.
DoN. Nichols wrote:

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Hi Machine man - I have my eye on that one. I've seen and used the ball bearing types and really like them a ton.
Thanks for your help. I think that I will possibly get this one "next time around" while going with the keyless one now.
I certainly have learned alot about drill chucks doing the "whats best to buy" comparison.
I do have an old jacobs "multicraft" which is the right size (about 1.5 long) for what I need, but probably not the right quality. It has the funky thread mount that I can't find an arbor (1/2 straight dia) for. It looks like these are for ahnd drills anyways.
Regards,
SMA
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On 1 Jul 2004 16:07:36 -0700, snipped-for-privacy@frontiernet.net (Sean-Michael Adams) wrote:

Ill trade you a 1/4" Albrict straight across for the 1/2" one, assuming its in good condition. Mine have #1 morse tapers, but they are easily removed.
I have several.
Gunner
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wrote:

This is a good deal for both parties. Trade with Gunner, then replace the 1/2" Albrecht with an import. The Albrecht precision is more important in the smaller chuck. I have two 1/2" import Albrecht clones (one for the mill, another for the lathe) that I've been very satisfied with. I got them from Grizzley, I think with 1/2" straight-shank arbors, for about $50 -- but this was some years ago.
Re #1 morse arbors: "easily removed" is a matter of having the wedges. Ask Gunner to remove them before shipping.
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Thanks for the offer, but I am pretty attached to the large chuck. It will come in very handy when I do any plate work. Right now i'm losing about 3 inches to the vice and another 4 to the drill chuck and then a bit to the drill and forget about the workpiece.
My hopes are to someday graduate to a "real" knee mill, but for now the small but useful HF mini-mill will have to do (and it has done a fine job for me so far). Once I graduate, this drill chuck will be a godsend.
Regards,
SMA
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