Small Florida Town "gets it" (guns)

The town council of Belville, FL in Marion County has passed a resolution, heartily upheld by the citizenry.
They have resolved that every household should possess, learn to use,
and keep available for use a firearm for personal protection.
There have been numerous home invasions in and around this little community, and they feel that armed, informed, capable citizens are the tools necessary to stop them.
Hooray for them!
LLoyd
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Lloyd E. Sponenburgh writes:

Now that is the kind of instrusive despotism we can all encourage.
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mattathayde had written this in response to http://polytechforum.com/metalworking/small-florida-town-gets-it-guns-195350-.htm :
------------------------------------- Lloyd E. Sponenburgh wrote:

i agree that everyone should learn how to safely learn to use a firearm but i think both extremes are just as bad, no armed citizens gives criminals power, how ever everyone being armed can pose just as many issues. there was a novel written a while back (cant remember the name and i never got to read it but the ending is simple), basically the society had everyone armed, some one tried to commit a crime and a citizen shot them, another citizen came onto the scene and saw a man holding a gun and some one down, so they shot, rinse, repeat and the body count kept going up.
i think there is a good middle ground but i sure dont want every one of my neighbors with a gun even if they are "trained" cause i dont think most of them can use it properly.
that being said i still think we need 22 ranges in schools like my parents and grandparents had
-matt
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mattathayde wrote:

That is a novel, i.e. fiction, it simply doesn't happen in real life.
Just like the doom and gloom wild west prophesies that the rabid anti gun loons make every time new carry laws come into play never happen. Civilians have been carrying concealed handguns for many decades and it has never presented any problems.
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On Aug 18, 12:26 pm, matt_at_athayde_dot snipped-for-privacy@foo.com (mattathayde) wrote:

Matt
There is a lot of things that sound rational and look good on paper that don't work out that way. Case in point Kennesaw Ga passed a similar resolution in 1982, crime rates dropped dramatically and stayed low.
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/1818862/posts
The statistics consistently show more guns in the hands of law abiding citizens results in less crime. Novels are something made up. Read all the novels for enjoyment all you want, but check the facts before making decisions.
CarlBoyd
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The most important part of learning to use a firearm, is not how to aim and fire, but when you have a legal right to use it.
States with conceal carry laws do a good job of assuring permits are only issued to knowledgeable persons with a proven history of reasonable judgment. That being the case, the scenario suggested by the novel simply does not happen.
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so, what will happen to a household which does not have the money to purchase a gun, or for religious or other reasons does not wish to own one? This is as clear an overstepping of bounds as I am aware of.
"Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" <lloydspinsidemindspring.com> wrote in message

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Bill Noble wrote:

This is a clear lack of reading comprehension, not overstepping of bounds. Read again, the key word is "should" as opposed to "shall" or "must".

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I am a little lost, then, as to what exactly is the legal requirement of this law.
i

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On Fri, 21 Aug 2009 23:28:06 -0500, Ignoramus1057

A resolution is not a law. It's more like a suggestion or call to citizens to "let's do this". It can legally be ignored.
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wrote:

so, this is just a bunch of guys getting together and saying that everyone in the city ought to have some guns? Is that what the citizens elected their city council to do - have bull sessions and make meaningless suggestions?
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On Fri, 21 Aug 2009 22:48:42 -0700, "Bill Noble"

Do you regard suggestions lacking force of law as meaningless? Would you prefer your city council to have more absolute power to dictate your behavior?
It may seem incredibly alien to y'all in Kalifornia, but out here in flyoverland the notion of a bunch of guys (and gals) getting together and suggesting whatever to their fellow citizens is quite acceptable. Matter of fact, it's part of what we elected them to do. We even understand the difference between a resolution and legislation.
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On Sat, 22 Aug 2009 01:27:13 -0500, Don Foreman

Mr. Noble is a Very liberal Democrat. Unless it has huge fines, years of jail time and whatnot involved..it means nothing to any of them.
And even then..it generally means nothing to them, unless it was proposed by another Leftwing Extremist Fringe Kook. Like gun control laws and the like.
Gunner
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yes, I regard suggestions lacking the force of law as "meaningless" in the context of a government body - they should not wast their time, the dollars to light the building while they debate it, or anything else unless there is an action to be taken - this is no more meaningful, per what you are telling me, than the "suggestion" that we get out of iraq that some city councils passed. Now, if they said that there would be free amunition, paid for by city taxes, that is a government act (we could debate its wisdom), but otherwise, this is strum-und-drag (hope I spelled it right)
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On Sat, 22 Aug 2009 12:08:27 -0700, "Bill Noble"

Sturm und Drang.
Perhaps a lot depends on the suggestability and even responsibility of the populace in question. If nobody in the populace (say in California) will do anything that's good for the greater number unless compelled to by law, then suggestions would indeed be useless. However, if a populace really believes in the leaders it elects and is strongly motivated to do "the right thing", then suggestions could be very effective. They might even be more effective than laws, which must be enforced (cost) and violators must be punished (more cost).
Laws are obviously necessary with any real populace, but I also think that resolutions can be useful and have beneficial effect.
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Don Foreman wrote:

Don, I live about three miles from the Belleview City Hall. A lot of people around here are armed, and well trained. The idea is to let the criminals know that there are less protected places that improve their chance of survival.
--
You can't have a sense of humor, if you have no sense!

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wrote:

I can see why. With a population of less than 4,000, Belleview has 32 registered sex offenders and a personal crime rate four times higher than my town, which is 17 miles from Newark. My town, with three times the population, has one registered sex offender. Violent crime runs 2.5 X higher in Belleview.
Personal armor would be a good idea, too. Even better would be moving somewhere else. d8-)
-- Ed Huntress
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On Mon, 24 Aug 2009 09:43:40 -0400, "Ed Huntress"

This data suggests that having "a lot of people armed and well-trained"apparently has not resulted in lower crime stats for Belleview than for Ed's town in N.J. which sounds like a nice place to live. There may also be differences in avg income, pct of pop near or below poverty level, population density and various other demographics that might have some influence on incidence of violent crime.
I don't buy the sometimes-suggested "halo effect" that allowing the populace to be armed reduces violent crime in general. I don't care for the NRA propaganda to that effect. The pivotal issue for me is my liberty and right to defend myself and mine whether or not others might care to do similarly for themselves and theirs.
I do buy the notion that a citizen who is able to effectively defend himself or herself is less likely to become a victim of what might otherwise become a violent crime.
I won't accept measures that would apply the same restrictions to me that they would to criminals and lunatics since I am neither. I am a responsible citizen. We can and should do better than that.
If body armor is indicated, it is indeed time to move.
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On Tue, 25 Aug 2009 01:07:46 -0500, Don Foreman

Perhaps the statement was made by the City Council in an effort to pass the word around that the crime rate needs to be reduced, and they have now "allowed" the citizens to help in the effort of removing bad people from the population, one way or another?

But Don..the Halo effect DOES exist. I live in a Red County in the middle of California. We have more CCW permit carriers than the ENTIRE rest of the state. We do have a crime rate..but it consistes mostly of minorities killing other minorities. Very very few whites kill each other off, and we do have a decent stat rate where minoritiy criminals are killed by whites in self defense. And even that homicide rate is dropping as the minority criminals have evidently decided that attacking a white may well get them killed.
I mention minorities and whites because while Im not a bigot..it IS a very big fact of life in the US in some places. Shrug. California..Southern California..the LA basin has a rapidly elevating homicide rate this year. And the increase has ALL been between minority victims and minority killers...ie Gang Crime. http://www.insidesocal.com/sb/sbnow/2009/01/national-study-finds-rising-tr.html
Since the growth of MS-13 in the major cities..there has been a significant rise in minority homicides..committed by other minorities.
IE..Blacks are being murdered by both other blacks and by latinos in rising rates.
White homicides, both commited by and victims of..are still falling...to lows below those of the 1960s.
Frankly..its gang warfare between two minoritiy groups that is rising the homicide rate. And given that MS-13 has few scruples and will kill purely out of instinct...its going to be an interesting year or two.
Gunner
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On Tue, 25 Aug 2009 00:34:55 -0700, Gunner Asch

I've not seen any statistics here breaking down murders and victims by ethnicity and/or affiliation, though it's evident from news reports that a preponderance of violent crime here takes place in relatively few neighborhoods.
If the preponderance of violent crime is minorities killing minorities, then it's about irrelevant to the statistics whether or not you or I are armed; they'll have their wars either way. However, our abilities could be very relevant to us personally in the rather unlikely event that we find ourselves in grave peril. Statistically insignificant, perhaps, but still higly relevant to us. So I don't buy the halo effect argument simply because it is irrelevant to me. I have no duty or even right to defend others. Others have no right to interfere with my ability to legally defend myself whether or not my ability is of any benefit to others, as long as it is of no detriment to others and creates no peril for them.
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