Small Florida Town "gets it" (guns)

On Tue, 25 Aug 2009 11:31:01 -0500, Don Foreman


It makes no difference what is YOu believe is relevant or not. What does occur is that the minorities (for example) understand that many non minority members are armed and willing to defend themselves with deadly force..so they go to places and attack people who are less likely to do exactly that.
You are of course familiar with Florida after they inacted the first Shall Issue permit CCW system in the US some 15-20 yrs ago, right?
Crime rates went down like a rock for most people. However..crimes against tourists with out of state tags, and rental cars rose like a skyrocket. In fact..most rental car companies had to remove the rental car stickers from their vehicles, before attacks on the drivers stopped.
Thats called Halo Effect.
You are confusing your personal beliefs versus Real Life, in a most small town manner. You really need to work on that.
Between 3 Strike Laws, and the fact that 40some states now have Shall Issue CCW laws..the end result has been a plunge in crime rates to below 1960s crime rates..and a strong rise in crime rates between minoritiy members. They had to shift their methods of income generation and now are killing each other off in turf wars.
Shrug
Gunner
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Gunner Asch wrote:

So they have gone from income generation to wealth redistribution?
That makes at least one segment of American society that is on-board with the Obama agenda!
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No..they are still in the Income generation business. Lasse'faire capitalists everyone of them. However a sense of fair play and community service isnt in their playbooks. Neither is mercy. Family is everything...family being whatever particular gang they swore their oaths to.

Of course it does. Minorities always do when it comes to Barry Soretos
Gunner
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On Tue, 25 Aug 2009 11:10:46 -0700, Gunner Asch

That seems inconsistent with your previous statements like: "Frankly..its gang warfare between two minority groups that is rising the homicide rate. And given that MS-13 has few scruples and will kill purely out of instinct...its going to be an interesting year or two." I see no evidence that this has any dependency upon whether or not non-minorities are armed. It may well have far more to do with increasing population density of minorities that join gangs.

Wrong. 15-20 years ago I had absolutely no interest in CCW. I've carried a blade or blades every day of my adult life and was once somewhat proficient with same, never felt any need for more as a civilian until I realized after Katrina that I'd become older, slower and weaker than I was in my salad days. Life lurches on.

Good example. I'd call it a plausible but quite possibly wrong hypothesis without supporting evidence.

Whoa! I constantly review my personal beliefs against the realities of my life. Change is constant as life goes on. My life is clearly different from yours. Matter of fact, your life may be different from how it was when you formed many of your beliefs and convictions decades ago. Don't presume to tell me about real life, not my real life anyway. YRLMV (your real life may vary)

3 strike laws have made what once would have been a simple mugging assault into a may-as-well-murder sit for a 2-time loser. Not speaking against 3-strike but that's the reality and it's a strong reason to carry where mugging is more than a remote possibility.
You know damned well that I strongly value my 2d amendment rights as a responsible citizen. If you don't know that you haven't been paying attention. Flawed-logic arguments like your preceding paragraph can easily be repellent to thoughtful people so I think they could aid and abet those intent on infringing or curtailing my 2d amendment rights. I do NOT appreciate that.
Ditto for the damned fool who showed up at a political ralley in Phoenix with a rifle clearly of tactical intent (vs hunting or target) slung on his shoulder. That is clear intent to intimidate because there was no need for defense. I regard that as flagrant abuse of 2d amendent rights. There's no excuse for that sort of behavior. Many or most reasonable gentle citizens would find that offensive and even frightening, which could easily make them less reasonable and more amenable to suggestions for draconian gun control.

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On Sun, 30 Aug 2009 16:17:32 -0700, Gunner Asch
(snip lots of supporting arguments for damn foolishness)

Nowhere did I say that anything should be stifled, nor do I think that any more than I think that folks who publicly post utter rubbish in offensive language should have their 1st amendment rights stifled.
However, I do think that if enough damned fools with guns indulge in swaggerwide, intimidating, defiant, "in your face" behavior abusing their 2d amendment rights, there will be increasing interest in making at least some of what is now legal no longer so. The 2d amendment is not writ in stone. The 21st amendment repealed the 18th amendment when the people decided that the 18th had been a mistake.
If I were trying to build public support for gun control, I'd make sure there were a couple of damn fools like this at lots of political rallies, corn feeds, festivals, outdoor concerts, state fairs, etc. "What color was he?" "Dunno but the gun was black."
My interest is not in stifling their rights even of damned fools, it's in not having their damnfoolishness result in my rights getting amended along with theirs. Ownership of guns does not presently require posession of even marginal intellect but I sure hope their smarter rellies, buds or neighbors eventually knock some sense into them. If they have a statement to make, let 'em make a speech or post written opinions like citizens rather than posturing as reckless rebels with assault rifles.

And you're from Da Nang, right? <G>
I'm actually from Michigan, but I've lived in MN for many years now.
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On Sun, 30 Aug 2009 23:22:41 -0500, Don Foreman

Which damned fools with guns are you discussing? A black man who exhibited cool knowledge of the law and made no scene?

Thats exactly what the Left TRIED to do. Notice that all the photos of the gentleman were edited to prevent any idea that he was black? And they (news anchors) were blithering about "racism"?

Nope..was only there a few times. Shrug. I hate big cities.

And it shows..it shows indeed. Gotta love the midwest mediocrity. Me..I left there and moved West...far more west than you did. Shrug
We believe that mediocrity is the root of all evil.
So you are a Centrist on gun rights too eh? Fortunately most people are far more involved and concerned than you are about freedom and firearm rights.
Hope you have a couple tucked away, that the Powers that be dont know about..and suitable amounts of ammo. You may be needing them in the next 3 yrs..less actually. Hope not...but..shrug..Ive explained why.
Respects
Gunner
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On Sun, 30 Aug 2009 23:33:11 -0700, Gunner Asch

No more so than a guy cooly wearing a hazmat suit in the school cafeteria.

You noticed! Very good, Gunner!

I wonder if I could pass the California entrance exam.

I think it's Lake Wobegone where all the children are above average. That's in MN, by the way.

Then there won't be a problem.
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I always gripe when Garrison says that. Durn it! If they're ALL above average, then who the heck did they use for the average, Chicago kids?
At least, the women are strong.
LLoyd
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On Mon, 31 Aug 2009 12:43:06 -0500, Don Foreman

And you have noticed perhaps that its backfired badly..and while the MSM has dropped it like a hot coal...the People have not forgotten what they tried to do...and are fuming about it? <G> Thats a very good thing. I take it you havent read much on guerilla warefare eh?
Here...maybe these will help
Guerrilla Warfare: Che Guevara - by Ernesto Guevara On Guerrilla Warfare - by Zedong Mao, Samuel B Griffith http://www.scribd.com/doc/12310871/Guerrilla-Warfare-Tactics-in-Urban-Environments-Marques-Masters-Thesis http://www.bestwebbuys.com/Fighting_in_the_Streets-ISBN_9780942637472.html?isrc=b-search http://www.bestwebbuys.com/David%27s_Tool_Kit-ISBN_9781559501439.html?isrc=b-search
Id be happy to send you a suggested reading list.

No..you are not Leftwing enough. On the other hand..you can sneak into the Red portion of California and feel largely at home. If you can deal with the weather.
http://www.usatoday.com/news/politicselections/vote2004/countymap.htm

Thats where the ugly kids come from? We see a few of them now and then in the malls here in California. Sad..very sad.

Of course not. Id still rather have you at my back than most urban Californians.
Notice the number of mentally ill people profiled: http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2004/11/07/MNGQO9NJOK1.DTL
And I still respect you greatly.
Gunner
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On Mon, 31 Aug 2009 13:06:52 -0700, Gunner Asch

Not for about 45 years. I'm surprised that you didn't include Sun Tzu's "Art of War", seminal for all forms of warfare including guerilla. Also useful for corporate in-fighting and probably for prevailing in piddle-contests within the Harper Valley PTA.
I did have some military education including school in guerilla warfare once upon a time.
Guerilla warfare, almost by definition, cannot not be learned from a book or a doctrine. There is no formula. It's more an attitude, ability to improvise and be sneaky, devious, alert, cunning, sly, utterly ruthless and usually invisible.
I'm retired.

Yeah, the climate of the red parts would be a problem. I don't mind heat, steamy or dry, but Minnesota Mary seems to be predominantly exothermic. She regards 45 as wet teeshirt weather and doesn't do hot weather well at all, not at all.

Those are FIB's from Iowa.
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On Tue, 01 Sep 2009 00:19:20 -0500, Don Foreman

Well..given the economy, the Obama clusterfuck and whatnot..Id have to say you are not retired,,,,but on inactive duty. Just a heads up for the next 2-3 yrs.

Its only been around 115f since Friday. Im working tonight, moving Stuff around in the back 40, tossing a bunch of shit away, mostly old computer equipment, boxing up a bunch to take to the Good Will, sorting out electrical stuff etc. its only 12:30 am, Ill rack out in 5 or 6 hours, sleep through the hot part of the day, and hit it again
. So far..Ive got No work for this week. Damned little money so I need to start trying to move some of this stuff that came out of the factory I shut down. And it appears that my place in Fullerton..a bigish factory..Is likely to get shut down any day. So Friday I spraypainted (with a stencil) my company name on everything Ive got in the plant, took some of my welding equipment and other Stuff home, leaving only the plasma cutter, 31' sissor lift and Tig welder, so the guys could use it.
Ive got to figure out what to do with a Hardinge chucker, DV59, OmniTurn retro on a Hardinge, surface grinder, 4 swiss screw machines, etc etc. I figure if I load em on a flat bed its gonna cost me $500 to get the load moved home..and then what do I do with em while trying to sell em? Im 150 miles north of LA.
And Ive got a 20' conex loaded to the roof with Stuff that will need to be moved someplace as well.
The economy in So. Cal...is really really bad. Really bad.

They grunted and said Minnneeeeesoootaaaa when I asked where they were spawned. Maybe they confused all that flat land.
Gunner
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On Sun, 30 Aug 2009 23:22:41 -0500, the infamous Don Foreman

I'm from Nairobi, Maam. Isn't everyone?

There's a difference?
-- Good intentions will always be pleaded for every assumption of authority. It is hardly too strong to say that the Constitution was made to guard the people against the dangers of good intentions. There are men in all ages who mean to govern well, but they mean to govern. They promise to be good masters, but they mean to be masters. --Daniel Webster
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On Mon, 31 Aug 2009 04:37:19 -0700, Larry Jaques

Northern Michigan (UP) and Northern MN are quite similar but Minneapolis/St Paul is demographically and culturally quite different from Detroit.
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On Mon, 31 Aug 2009 11:49:06 -0500, the infamous Don Foreman

It's all Fort Frozen Wilderness to me. Got Canucks? (Or do the Finns and Swedes make up for a lack of them? ;)
-- Good intentions will always be pleaded for every assumption of authority. It is hardly too strong to say that the Constitution was made to guard the people against the dangers of good intentions. There are men in all ages who mean to govern well, but they mean to govern. They promise to be good masters, but they mean to be masters. --Daniel Webster
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On Mon, 31 Aug 2009 04:37:19 -0700, Larry Jaques

There are somewhat less rusting factories in MN...somewhat.
Gunner
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On Mon, 31 Aug 2009 12:43:31 -0700, the infamous Gunner Asch

Um, do you mean there stainless steel factories or that there are fewer rusting factories there, G? Or both? <chortle>
-- Good intentions will always be pleaded for every assumption of authority. It is hardly too strong to say that the Constitution was made to guard the people against the dangers of good intentions. There are men in all ages who mean to govern well, but they mean to govern. They promise to be good masters, but they mean to be masters. --Daniel Webster
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On Mon, 31 Aug 2009 12:43:31 -0700, Gunner Asch

Three of the leading three makers of medical electronic devices (pacemakers, ICD's etc) are here: Boston Sci, Medtronic and St. Jude. Also Starkey, a leading maker of hearing aids. The HQ of Magnum Research (Desert Eagle) is right here in Fridley, an easy walk from my house. http://www.magnumresearch.com/
Unmarked other than their street address but I drove right by their front door today en route to the nearby post office to pick up our accumulated mail.
Much of Michigan, at least the lower peninsula, is economically tied to the auto industry in Detroit. 'Nuff said?
The yoopers (Upper Peninsula) are also feeling the pinch. There's about no industry in the UP but there are three universities and a few highways that depend upon flow of money north from Lansing.
I had a chat last week with some folks on staff at Michigan Technological University in Houghton. One of them was neighbor-at-lake Zip's daughter and a dept administrator, her hub is a prof. Research grant money from Detroit has dried up noticably. Fancy that.
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Larry Jaques wrote:

You don't want to count the elevator boy?
David
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On Tue, 25 Aug 2009 11:10:46 -0700, Gunner Asch

It may well make no difference to you or anyone else what I believe is relevant. That was and is, in a way, my point. I neither refute nor support the halo effect argument that you present and presumably believe. It is not a factor in any decisions I make so it is irrelevant to me. YMMV.
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On Wed, 26 Aug 2009 23:55:22 -0500, Don Foreman

Your belief system is noted. Appreciated non the less.
http://www.ironwordranch.com /
http://www.ccrkba.org/defender1998.htm
"The benefits of concealed handguns are not limited to those who use them in self-defense. Because the guns may be concealed, criminals are unable to tell whether potential victims are carrying guns until they attack, thus making it less attractive for criminals to commit crimes that involve direct contact with victims. Citizens who have no intention of ever carrying concealed handguns in a sense get a free ride from the crime-fighting efforts of their fellow citizens. However, the halo effect created by these laws is apparently not limited to people who share the characteristics of those who carry guns. The most obvious example is the drop in murders of children following the adoption of nondiscretionary laws. Arming older people not only may provide direct protection to these children, but also causes criminals to leave the area...
http://www.paulhager.org/why004.htm
etc etc etc.
Gunner
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