Update on welding with implanted defibrillator

Summary: not lookin' promising.

I've had contact with some good people: a senior fellow engineer at a major ICD mfr, a former employee (engineer) of a major ICD mfr and friend of many years, my wife's niece who is a former cardiac nurse of 30+ years experience, and helpful others.

Findings:

There are reported cases of weldors returning to work with ICD's but the reports are sketchy on details. One report mentions a minimum distance of 24" between weldor and cables, work and torch. That ain't how I weld: my face is right in there with 2 diopter lenses in my mask.

The experience of having a defib misfire has been variously described as being hit by lightning and being kicked in the chest by a mule. I'd rather skip that experience. Welding is fun, being kicked in the chest by a mule very probably isn't.

I can't seem to get data on acceptable field strengths (E-field and H or B field) that won't cause an ICD to malfunction. I opined that this is probably because the goddamned lawyers make this data highly proprietary. That was confirmed by the engineer (and friend) formerly employed by a major mfr. Goddamned lawyers.

So I'm about SOL here, not being up for a mule kick in chest while experimenting, candyass that I am.

Helluvit is that I have no friends who can do TIG and MIG, though Karl Townsend's son "the kid" may be a savior. Neither of my sons are at all interested. One daughter is, and she's done some nice work with MIG but she lives in Brooklyn NY so she's not exactly local.

Mar, bless her hawrt, has volunteered that she might do a Vo-Tech course in TIG and MIG. She'd be a natural, that based on her precision quilting and prowess with handgun, both hand-eyes coordination activites. TBD how that goes, but whatta teammate for even considering it, eh? Hey, she severely aced ground school for pilot licence for previous hub in the bad old days. Highest score they'd ever seen if I recall correctly. What a fool he was for doing her wrong, what good luck for me and eventually us. Goin' on 30 years now and it just keeps getting better.

Most folks are quite happily "weld free" in their dotages, right? Still, it's a bit of a lump to be prohibited from practicing a skill and activity I've enjoyed developing over decades and frequently find useful in my shop. Oh shit oh dear, poor me.

I intend to wallow in this for a while, f*ck you if you can't take a joke. I'm not happy about this, but it's no secret that gettin' old ain't for sissies.

Reply to
Don Foreman
Loading thread data ...

(...)

(...)

Oxygas has a much lower potential for inductive or magnetic coupling, I hear tell.

--Winston

Reply to
Winston

...

I've lived with a much less serious issue for years. Shine a light in my eyes and I can't see AT ALL. Got it from me mother. I haven't driven at night for years and can't weld for beans. I can glob things together with a stick if I got an edge to feel and can hold a small metal plate in my left hand in front of the arc. Not purty and only for stuff where I can turn the amps way up.I've found lots of places for shrink fits and fasteners that others would weld.

Lucky for me "The Kid" didn't get my genes here. He was able to show his daddy up at a very young age with this skill. He was good enough that the best TIG welder in my area hired him to help out with a huge order for stainless fixtures displayed in Dayton's stores throughout the country. After that, he welded chest spreaders for open heart surgery. (maybe you used some of his work) Amazing what experience under a pro will teach you.

Let me know when you want to rent "The Kid"

Karl

Reply to
Karl Townsend

The apprehension of getting a jolt whould take the fun out of for you anyway.

There is always O/A and silver brazing.

Sorry,

Wes

Reply to
Wes

just how much welding do you need to do???? my welder sits idle for months, years at a time.

trefolex will have a big part of your future methinks. that and a george thomas tapping fixture.

stop stuffing around with welds and get yourself a new set of taps and dies.

....the old get wiser, the stupid just keep on ...

Stealth Pilot

Reply to
Stealth Pilot

On Tue, 13 Jan 2009 00:40:05 -0600, the infamous Don Foreman scrawled the following:

OK, so ground your head, too. Piece of cake/duck soup.

Grok that.

Amen.

Ya wuss! Blanket up, ground your wrists, and go do it after the op. _IF_ it still kicks you, gracefully bow out of welding for good. But don't just give up on a happy hobby.

Most excellent, sir! SCHWING! She's a keeper.

Queueing violins _now_!

-- Acceptance is such an important commodity, some have called it "the first law of personal growth." -- Peter McWilliams, Life 101

Reply to
Larry Jaques

Don,

I sympathize with your loss. Fortunately I haven't gotten there yet but I'm getting to where I understand where you are. Seems like only yesterday I was indestructible and could do anything I wanted, now my back is screwed and I can't see like I used to by any stretch. I think you have a few decades on my too so in that way I envy you. Frankly I'm not all that good of a welder but I have had some that come out beautiful.

Everybody else, For the fellows suggesting bolts and taps. When was the last time you finished a project and looked at it and said "Damn that looks like a mighty fine bolt". A bolt is a bolt, a good weld is a work of art - a reduction in the entropy of the cosmos - something that makes you feel warm and fuzzy inside.

I'm sure Don will carry on making things of utility and beauty but let's grieve with him for this loss, not just for him but for all of us who truly love these things we do and are going to be there someday too.

rem

Reply to
Rob Morden
[snip]

Another issue is that such things are quite variable, making precise recommendations hard to make with any reliability. For one thing, relative orientation matters a lot, and yet cannot be controlled.

However, the ICD makers probably are required to pass some EMI immunity standards, and these will of necessity have specific numbers. Typically, the ICD maker lists the standards they meet in the datasheet for the ICD in question. The lawyers cannot stop this, as meeting these standards is mandatory. What they will not publish is how much margin against these standards the ICD provides.

Joe Gwinn

Reply to
Joseph Gwinn

Personally, given the reports of the things misfiring, the lack of direct control and the fact that the world outside your shop presents variable EMI/RFI hazards, I'd look for options other than an ICD then. The data you've dug up leads me to consider the ICDs themselves as the hazard, not the welding near one. Perhaps just keep an AED with you and ensure you have someone in the vicinity who can use it.

Reply to
Pete C.

Sorry to hear your news. My sister was the first woman in the United states to wear an external left ventricular assist after a defib after CABG. She ended up getting the heart of a 25 yo male who had died in a motorcycle accident. Coming up on two years now.

Yeah, it's a bitch getting old. I am getting more hoists and using them. I would like to fashion some type of stiffleg crane to use over my work table and to unload the truck. I did make one for the cabin, and it works great instead of schlepping everything up and down the stairs. Probably stuff I should have been doing all along, but now it's a must.

Learn to work smart. And take that OA tip, too. You can still do lots of OA. Lots of trick mechanical fasteners around, too. A friend of mine was a stage hand back in the days when they weren't all juice babies (young men whose father's and relative's influence got them in the union) and he could weld something beautiful with OA. Best to you. I'm facing an operation that is only one step under a transplant, so I'm trying to last as long as I can.

Steve

Reply to
SteveB

With all the intelligence and experience in this group someone might know a way to use copper mesh in your welding clothes to create a Faraday Cage and attach a ground to absorb the harmfull rf. I imagine using a signal strength tester might tell you if you're close to a solution.

dennis in nca

Reply to
rigger

Hope you find a metal joining technique that doesn't end up throwing you across the room! In your condition, maybe a bit of gentle exercise in front of a nice warm forge and anvil would be good for you :-)

It's a pity that the manufacturers are unlikely to lend you a unit that could be sewn up into a slab of beef and tested in proximity to a welding setup. I have a suspicion that the screening on the cables and the noise rejection in the controller _should_ be good enough to cope with the noise from welding, But finding that it wasn't by being internally electrocuted would show rather extreme dedication.

Good luck with the op and I hope the box sits there inside you for many years, never being needed.

regards Mark Rand RTFM

Reply to
Mark Rand

If you were in the Phoenix area, I have been known to weld for beer. I pretty well have TIG (20years) and am learning MIG (5 sessions).

BobH

Reply to
BobH

I was bummed last night, sorry about the ohpoorme rant. Maybe I should write a country western song? "The TIG I love so dear done mule-kicked me in the hawrt..." May need a bit of work...

Someone asked how often I use my welding kit. I'd say a couple of times a week some weeks, but often for only a minute or two each time. I do little stuff. I don't care if I never build another trailer. I very probably wouldn't anyway.

Lots of new data today. Tons. I actually did get some real EMI specifications, thanks to the good folks at Boston Scientific. The key spec is probably 60Hz B field at 1 gauss (0.1 millitesla). Finally, something I can get some traction with. I need to make some measurements, but I think 1 gauss might not be a problem if I dress the cables well and keep the current below 200 amps which would not be an issue at all. I could probably keep it below 125 amps without giving up much. Gotta build a little gauss sensor. I'll do that tomorrow. I have linear Hall sensors and instrumentation opamps in the goodie box, no prob. I can TIG a shielded box together for it since I can still TIG. Fitch is loaning me his scope meter (battery powered, digital, with memory) for logging data while I weld mask-down. That'll arrive tomorrow by UPS blue label. I can piss and moan with sleeves rolled up.

I'm learning that part of the problem here is an attitude problem, and I don't mean mine. I either need to get the electrofizz doc's attitude shifted or find a different one pronto.

I'd forgotten that one of my gentleman shooting buds used to work at Guidant, now Boston Scientific. Sent him an email last night. He shook his old-colleague bush a bit and lordy did the fruit fall! One particularly encouraging note was from a Senior Engineering Fellow who happened to be skiing in Taos but answered other Senior Engineering Fellow's call anyway. For those unfamiliar with engineering orgs or academia, few engineers attain the status/rank/title of Fellow. It's a bit like General in the military, except that I think most Fellows are paid better than Generals.

His first comment was particularly encouraging:

Reply to
Don Foreman

May I please have a string quartet including cello, viola and contrabass?

You'll get your turn in the box, ol' Son.

Reply to
Don Foreman

On Tue, 13 Jan 2009 23:20:42 -0600, the infamous Don Foreman scrawled the following:

Must you understate things so?

--major snippage--

Candidly ask the doctor how much he's going to make for spending X hours installing that ICD. Ask him if he would consider taking the time to actually learn more about parameter adjustments of said device because you're -damned- sure going to be welding after having it installed.

If he balks at all, ask him squarely "Do you want to make the money on this operation or should I find a more cooperative physician?" So many doctors are in the biz solely for the money (and recognition/fame) that you'll either find out his true motivation or you'll knock some humanity into the poor soul.

I still can't believe that those turkeys no longer have to take the Hippocratic oath.

Hugs to Mary and a manly hug to you, Don. G'luck in your quest. And may no mules kick you in the hawrt.

-- A great preservative against angry and mutinous thoughts, and all impatience and quarreling, is to have some great business and interest in your mind, which, like a sponge shall suck up your attention and keep you from brooding over what displeases you. -- Joseph Rickaby

Reply to
Larry Jaques

On Tue, 13 Jan 2009 23:49:08 -0600, the infamous Don Foreman scrawled the following:

Ah kin sells ya a right purty soundin' keyboard or pinanner with them instermunts in 'er, Don. Howzbout this 'un?

formatting link

Hell, I'm already feeling it at age 55. But my body and I have decided that when the time comes for things to start failing or falling off, I'll just keel over and be done with this trip. While I'd surely love to die in the saddle, I think of what it would do to the ridee's psyche and no longer want that.

-- A great preservative against angry and mutinous thoughts, and all impatience and quarreling, is to have some great business and interest in your mind, which, like a sponge shall suck up your attention and keep you from brooding over what displeases you. -- Joseph Rickaby

Reply to
Larry Jaques

Encouraging.

The important thing to remember is - Do not ever hesitate to fire a doctor you have issues with - They are service providers, not gods, if you have a problem with them tell them why you are taking your business elsewhere as you walk out the door taking your file with you. If enough people do this they will learn. Personally I fired an allergist a year or so ago that I clashed with and the next one I found was vastly better and no more clashing. You are the customer, you are always right, and if you aren't happy with the service take your business to a competitor.

Reply to
Pete C.

Greetings Don, Several years ago I had crushing injuries and wanted the best doctor available to do the repair work after the initial emergency work was done. Fortunately for me the trauma surgeon also happened to be one of the best in the world for repairing my type of injuries. He is also a professor and lectures other doctors world wide. However, I met several doctors during about 2 years of surgeries who did not have the same curiosity and vision of my doc. He would really listen to me and did fairly risky surgeries because the potential payoff was so high for me personally. So it really pays to have a doctor that is curious and keeps up with ALL aspects of the work said doctor performs.

Reply to
etpm

On Wed, 14 Jan 2009 17:20:12 GMT, the infamous snipped-for-privacy@whidbey.com scrawled the following:

I hope Don takes a copy of this email to his doctor when he next speaks to him.

-- A great preservative against angry and mutinous thoughts, and all impatience and quarreling, is to have some great business and interest in your mind, which, like a sponge shall suck up your attention and keep you from brooding over what displeases you. -- Joseph Rickaby

Reply to
Larry Jaques

PolyTech Forum website is not affiliated with any of the manufacturers or service providers discussed here. All logos and trade names are the property of their respective owners.