Virtue Signaling Vises

Jun 24, 2023 Last reply: 3 years ago 16 Replies

I recently posted a picture of a successful very high hold milling operation in a grinder vise on one of those machinist groups. It was a no-name import I am sure. I got a little respect and a little reasonable fear, but more than plenty who were adamant that it was 112% stupid and those vises have no holding force and are worthless on anything but a grinder. "You should get an Orange Vise," or "GASP!!!!!! Its not a Kurt," were common refrains. I explained how I had already done horsepower calculations for the operations, and the etched in... well... aluminum and steel FACT that I run that high hold every single day on almost every part I make. That I have four machines with five similar vises setup with machined in place ledges for a high hold and I run them that way every day and have for years. Mostly I cut aluminum, but I have cut brass, 4140HT, and 304 stainless this way. "Its not a KURT!!!" "You should get an Orange!!!"



Okay, here is the real reason. I don't work on a half million dollar VMC owned by my boss and his bank in somebody else's shop. Every machine I have I paid for and I own them. This means I have small machines. A Kurt or an Orange is 40% physically larger than a similar grip range screwless grinder vise. I don't have working envelope to throw away with my dollars.



"AN ORANGE IS NOT 40% LARGER FOR ITS GRIP RANGE!!!!!"



Really? It doesn't have a fixed jaw that is several times longer than the fixed jaw on a grinder vise? It isn't several times longer than it is deep? ... or does it phase shift through 9 dimensions so it CAN occupy the same space at the same time as the column when you shift it back far enough to actually use the work envelope of a small machine? The moving jaw is not also much longer than the moving jaw on a grinder vise not only making the jaw space a lot bigger, but also requiring longer sliding surface to run out on to open?



I haven't seen every type mill vise there is, but I think have around ten of them from 4 inches to 8 inches and every single one of them is like this. How is an Orange vise smaller than all of them?



The only real space saving feature I have seen on a lock down mill vise is a recessed heck socket drive instead of an exposed bolt head style drive. It was still bigger than a comparable size grinder vise. In fact I can drop a 6 inch grinder vise in less space than a 4 inch mill vise and close the doors on my smallest machine. I actually tried a 4 inch mill vise (with no cast mounting flanges) set as far back as it would go without crashing into the column. The doors wouldn't close.



Then there is this. Maybe a grinder vise won't clamp down as hard as a mill vise, but with no special tuning of a premium high end over priced brand it also has virtually zero jaw lift. This means the jaws remain perpendicular to is own flat sliding surfaces and hold flatter on the stock.



I must be inferior for not using my boss's Orange vise on my boss's half million dollar financed VMC, in my boss's financed or rented shop.



BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!



So I wonder how much chemical waste is still being dumped int he ocean from the off shore manufacture of solar panels.


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You can figure out how to get the job done. To me that defines a Real Machinist.

Oh, I am not a "real" machinist. I'm a maker, builder, and shade tree mechanic, except where I grew I didn't have a shade tree. Instead I had a rusty A frame made out of old well casing and scrap metal. Where "real" shade tree mechanics had to throw a cover on the carb to keep out leaves I had to stuff an old sock in it to keep out sand.

And, yes I know proffessional is misspelled. It was an accident at first, but now its on purpose.

And it irritates the livin' s*it out of some people . That's why I always put a space before punctuation .

Oh, I am not a "real" machinist. I'm a maker, builder, and shade tree mechanic, except where I grew I didn't have a shade tree. Instead I had a rusty A frame made out of old well casing and scrap metal. Where "real" shade tree mechanics had to throw a cover on the carb to keep out leaves I had to stuff an old sock in it to keep out sand.

And, yes I know proffessional is misspelled. It was an accident at first, but now its on purpose.

Bob La Londe

------------------- I was lucky enough to have a nice shade tree, behind the garage and out of sight, and a big flat-ish rock for a workbench, plus permission to use the table saw from age 8 so I wouldn't be pestering Dad. He did a lot of remodeling so I had plenty of scrap lumber and pipe, and bricks for the forge. I was in heaven, building stuff that mostly headed that way.

I may have provoked UFO sightings by launching ultra-light parachutes on thermals. From below they were clear and barely visible, viewed from a low angle they reflected the sky and clouds and appeared silvery. I was in college pulling other pranks during the 1965 Exeter NH incident but I immediately recognized its description as a tissue paper hot air balloon, made from a pattern in Boy's Life.

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People can't judge the size of or distance to an unknown object in the sky and ground-level wind is very erratic around trees and buildings. Helium balloons behave differently because they quickly rise above the turbulence. I would have lit it with tiny flashing Christmas bulbs powered by cells removed from a 9V battery to save weight. Road flare powder would make the lifting flame bright red.

I didn't have credentials for most of what I did, from designer and project manager for industrial test equipment to building digital radios for the USAF and FAA. In fact I took a ham license course to learn how radios worked. I picked up analog and digital circuit design in the Army, on-the-job and in night school, and had to apply as a tech and prove I could do much more at each new job. I got into Segway by showing them a bag of small parts and tools I had machined at home. R&D jobs (and companies) usually aren't permanent.

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soon as development ended some of the tech staff quit and moved west, they said to develop autonomous electric vehicles or something.
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"He was the first employee and vice president, Design and Engineering, at Segway." He moves around too.

I recently posted a picture of a successful very high hold milling operation in a grinder vise on one of those machinist groups. It was a no-name import I am sure. I got a little respect and a little reasonable fear, but more than plenty who were adamant that it was 112% stupid and those vises have no holding force and are worthless on anything but a grinder. "You should get an Orange Vise," or "GASP!!!!!! Its not a Kurt," were common refrains...

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There were high and low status brands in electronic test equipment too, Tektronix was "it" for oscilloscopes and HP or Fluke for most everything else. Keithley was ultra high status but almost too specialized and vastly overpriced. That lasted into the 90's and then suddenly fell apart, as much from disappointing performance in new products from the big guys as increasingly capable competition. I suspect the older generation retired or was forced out and wasn't properly replaced. I had a $20,000 oscilloscope at work and a $200 one at home.

The $20,000 scope ran Windows and was connected to the Net, though few knew that, so as a sight gag I'd leave it hooked up to some simple circuit with live NWS radar weather displaying on the screen.

Once my South Bend lathe was high status and it's still somewhat collectible as "vintage" but its 1920's design is hopelessly obsolete for a money making job shop. Still, a '65 SB is more use to me than a '65 Mustang would be.

Except for having a couple contractor's licenses (expired) for 23 years and a couple self taught certifications so I could buy particular brands of product I have no certification for any skill I have. 117 college credits (and a good GPA) and no degree either. Not even an AAS. My son made up for it though. He just did his first college graduation and got three (2 AAs and an AAS) degrees and a certificate in something. He also got his pharmacy tech license which is how he's surviving through college. He wants a BA in engineering specializing in "material science" eventually. I guess that means lots more physics and chemistry for him.

I once had a boss tell me I should lie my way into something good, and then learn how to do it. That's just not me.

There were hard times. At one point I applied for a job washing dishes and the restaurant told me they wouldn't hire me because I was going to school and they wanted me to be on demand when THEY needed me. Another time I applied for a job with county government doing menial computer service work, doing data backups, etc. I made the mistake of listing my computer experience and education in computers a little to thoroughly in my information. I mentioned one (JUST ONE) class in systems analysis and design. The interviewer said he wasn't going to hire me because he wanted me to apply for a job in a couple months as a systems analyst. A job I was clearly not qualified for. I didn't need a job in a couple months so I wound up tutoring part time at college and terminating telephone cable for a communication contractor part time. I don't know if that analyst job ever came open. I never looked for it.

I even got into contracting kind of by mistake. A former employer didn't pay me for all the contracting jobs I had sold for them, and one of them contacted me through a mutual friend. I was doing computer service and minor upgrades on legacy systems at the time. *** The customer told me the former employer totally changed the job from what they wanted and and tried to get them to sign a new contract. Obviously to cover their asses if I sued for unpaid commissions. They asked me if I would do the job myself the way they actually wanted it. I borrowed some money from my girlfriend (now my wife of 29 years) and a contractor was born.

*** At the time I was doing computer service for all the guys who had older systems the computer stores didn't want to work on. They just wanted to sell them a new 386. Some kid couldn't afford a couple grand for a new 386, but he could afford 50 bucks for a second hard drive or an RLL (or MFM -A) card to increase the capacity of their drive. A buddy of mine who had a computer store sold me all his old PC/XT cards for pennies on the dollar. I could drop a card that literally cost me a dollar into somebody's old XT, almost double their drive storage and make $49 for my labor. For an extra $10 (drives were small back then) I'd use a home made parallel laplink cable to copy all their files onto one of my drives, and restore them after the upgrade making sure their machine booted and files were verified before it left my living room. Evenings and weekends I delivered pizza.

Back then the Computer Shopper was a real resource instead of a joke. I started buying second generation new AT parts that were being closed out as new stuff came on the market. I had a small but decent group of customers who were always looking for a deal on a small upgrade. I'd post XX meg SIMMs limited availability on a local bulletin board, and I have a half dozen calls before the end of the day to see if I had any left. During that time I used a cobbled together 8088 with a 5meg MFM drive running at 9meg with an MFM-A card to access bulletin boards.

Had one kid back then get really mad at me. He brought me a PC (a real PC) for a second drive. I opened it up and discovered it was an 8086 with the old board that has no dip switches to set for a second drive. I could mechanically install the drive, but the machine wouldn't address it. I told him I could drop a bigger drive in it or install a card to increase the size of his existing drive and copy his data, but he just called me a liar and a crook and brought his dad to come get his computer back. A year or two later he ran into me and acted all friendly like we should be buddies because we knew who each other was. ****

**** Had the same thing happen years later with a one day employee. I got tired of him just not doing the basic things I told him to do. We went out side to talk about it, and he put up his fists and asked if I wanted to fight. I just told him to get in the truck. I took him to the office, wrote him a check, walked him out to his vehicle and said, "Now to be clear you are no longer my employee and you are trespassed from this property. If you want to fight take a swing at me now." Years later I ran into him in K-Mart and he did the same thing. Acted all friendly and acted like we should be buddies because we recognized each other. Morons. The both of them.

That's probably way to much of nothing anybody wants to read. I still feel today like I am fighting to survive sometimes.

If I get tired of fighting you know what all of that ability gets me if I want to just give up and work a 9-5 for somebody else? Nothing. I'm over qualified to be a WalMart greeter and I don't have disposition for it.

Except for having a couple contractor's licenses (expired) for 23 years and a couple self taught certifications so I could buy particular brands of product I have no certification for any skill I have. 117 college credits (and a good GPA) and no degree either. Not even an AAS. My son made up for it though. He just did his first college graduation and got three (2 AAs and an AAS) degrees and a certificate in something. He also got his pharmacy tech license which is how he's surviving through college. He wants a BA in engineering specializing in "material science" eventually. I guess that means lots more physics and chemistry for him.

I once had a boss tell me I should lie my way into something good, and then learn how to do it. That's just not me.

There were hard times. At one point I applied for a job washing dishes and the restaurant told me they wouldn't hire me because I was going to school and they wanted me to be on demand when THEY needed me. Another time I applied for a job with county government doing menial computer service work, doing data backups, etc. I made the mistake of listing my computer experience and education in computers a little to thoroughly in my information. I mentioned one (JUST ONE) class in systems analysis and design. The interviewer said he wasn't going to hire me because he wanted me to apply for a job in a couple months as a systems analyst. A job I was clearly not qualified for. I didn't need a job in a couple months so I wound up tutoring part time at college and terminating telephone cable for a communication contractor part time. I don't know if that analyst job ever came open. I never looked for it.

I even got into contracting kind of by mistake. A former employer didn't pay me for all the contracting jobs I had sold for them, and one of them contacted me through a mutual friend. I was doing computer service and minor upgrades on legacy systems at the time. *** The customer told me the former employer totally changed the job from what they wanted and and tried to get them to sign a new contract. Obviously to cover their asses if I sued for unpaid commissions. They asked me if I would do the job myself the way they actually wanted it. I borrowed some money from my girlfriend (now my wife of 29 years) and a contractor was born. ... That's probably way to much of nothing anybody wants to read. I still feel today like I am fighting to survive sometimes.

Bob La Londe Proffessional Hack, Hobbyist, Wannabe, Shade Tree, Button Pushing, Not a real machinist

-------------------

You were fighting and you were winning, unlike a lot of independent-minded but less capable people I've met, even in Mensa. Flea market sellers have told me some of the best stories of failed careers in high tech up to the NASA level.

I'm not a businessman and know I need an employer buffering me from the public. I also know to back away from a project when asked to design something that could fail dangerously. We were warned in college that inexperienced new employees may be sacrificed that way. It comes back when reading about the carbon fiber sub hull.

I read an article in which James Cameron and naval architects discussed how Titanic's hull might have fractured, in tension at the deck or by buckling at the keel, the upper and lower strength elements of the hull girder. The wreckage shows possible evidence of both. He knows his engineering. The movie shows an oversimplified version of the fracture that could be repeatedly reassembled and filmed again. He wrote that he sank that ship 20 times, after which it had deteriorated too much to save.

If I get tired of fighting you know what all of that ability gets me if I want to just give up and work a 9-5 for somebody else? Nothing. I'm over qualified to be a WalMart greeter and I don't have disposition for it.

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In R&D the hours could be 8AM until midnight. When I was hacking up office computers to do something never intended such as Hot Swap no one bothered me lest I try to explain it to them. The problem with R&D is finding a new job after the current one is finished. I'd cut firewood and fix things in the interim, then sign on somewhere as a lab tech and work my way up again. You can't just ask if they have any secret projects.

Did you write the program for parallel port Laplink? When Power over Ethernet was being developed I wrote a program to communicate with the PoE controller IC from an LPT port reconfigured as serial I2C, so an unmodified lab computer could talk to the application board.

No. Laplink was a commercial program. At the time most people were happy to use a null modem adapter and transfer data at at 115K using RS232. It was still easier than sneaker net. You could buy a null modem at Radio Shack. A few of us got together one day and looked up the pin to pin settings for a crossover parallel cable as I soldered up connector after connector using one buddies 15 watt (I think that's what he said) iron and another buddies plastic vise. I can do it with a hotter iron, but it takes a delicate touch. Parallel transfer was roughly 4 times faster than RS232.

I accepted a propane weed burner from a friend the other day to assist with the type of soldering I am more likely to do in the near future. Just get the whole damn thing hot!!!

When Power over

Nice.

I haven't written any code in a very very long time. I think the last thing I wrote (g-code doesn't count) was a "screen saver" and boot program for PCDOS 7.0 for an old AMD 486 I was using to remote program alarm panels over dial up. I think I compiled it in Quick Basic 4.5. Rather than replace the defunct battery it just booted into a screen that demanded you set the date and time blinking randomly around the screen. I wrote that program in the mid or late 90s. I actually was still using that computer once in a while for that purpose until I closed the contracting company on December 31st 2016. I gave it to the company that bought my contracts. I didn't give them any of my modems. I sent those all to a friend in the alarm business who just announced his retirement a few weeks ago. Need some old Hayes 1200 modems? The special ones with 10 dip switches instead of 8. How about a couple Cardinal 2400s, a proprietary DSC MD12, a proprietary SK, or a Sporsters

14.4. I bet he would sell them all cheap plus whatever modems he already had. LOL.

I still used those for some panels, but a lot with cellular communicators were programmed over the internet the last few years. That was so nice and so fast. Blip, send, done.

It was great for retrieving internal system logs too when customers would lie to me.

"Your alarm panel goes off every day for no reason."

"No YOUR panel goes is triggered every day at 7:00PM when the cleaning crew goes in the side door instead of the front or back door like they are supposed to."

I savored every word ... kinda the story of my life , though in different fields . Ran a home repair or flooring install business days before I got into cabinet making , and delivered pizza at night to make ends meet . My wife was a stay-at-home mom (my idea, not hers), I wanted my kids raised by us instead of daycares and a succession of babysitters . I no longer feel driven to make ends meet ... our needs are simple , everything is paid for and between our SS and a small retirement from the wife's teaching days we're doing all right .

On 6/27/2023 1:44 PM, Jim Wilkins wrote: ... No. Laplink was a commercial program. At the time most people were happy to use a null modem adapter and transfer data at at 115K using RS232. It was still easier than sneaker net. You could buy a null modem at Radio Shack. A few of us got together one day and looked up the pin to pin settings for a crossover parallel cable as I soldered up connector after connector using one buddies 15 watt (I think that's what he said) iron and another buddies plastic vise. I can do it with a hotter iron, but it takes a delicate touch. Parallel transfer was roughly 4 times faster than RS232.

--------------------- The port hardware extends bit times to around 1 microsecond, regardless of bus speed. I have an 8 input channel, 16 bit A/D converter that I built into a Macintosh data acquisition card and got back when that project ended. It's a good candidate to connect to a laptop printer port, someday.

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I accepted a propane weed burner from a friend the other day to assist with the type of soldering I am more likely to do in the near future. Just get the whole damn thing hot!!!

---------------- Car radiator repair? I'm trying to adapt my 240V HF spotwelder to attach nickel tabs to batteries. Wish me luck!

----------------

I haven't written any code in a very very long time. I think the last thing I wrote (g-code doesn't count) was a "screen saver" and boot program for PCDOS 7.0 for an old AMD 486 I was using to remote program alarm panels over dial up. I think I compiled it in Quick Basic 4.5. Rather than replace the defunct battery it just booted into a screen that demanded you set the date and time blinking randomly around the screen. I wrote that program in the mid or late 90s. I actually was still using that computer once in a while for that purpose until I closed the contracting company on December 31st 2016. I gave it to the company that bought my contracts. I didn't give them any of my modems. I sent those all to a friend in the alarm business who just announced his retirement a few weeks ago. Need some old Hayes 1200 modems? The special ones with 10 dip switches instead of 8. How about a couple Cardinal 2400s, a proprietary DSC MD12, a proprietary SK, or a Sporsters

14.4. I bet he would sell them all cheap plus whatever modems he already had. LOL.

----------------- My custom screensaver imitated the random character waterfall from The Matrix. Another programmer's would periodically pop up in large text REPENT, THE END IS NEAR, which might suddenly appear as you walked by.

I have a 56K Sportster which is one more external modem than I need. When I had a dialup monthly data limit I wrote a program that read and parsed the AT commands and status messages in the modem.log for new connections to add to my bytes count file. That was probably my trickiest, most difficult code because there were so many combinations of conditions to consider.

In 1970 I "learned" a Western Electric 2400 Baud modem that en- and decoded with very clever quadrature transformer circuits, somewhat similar to the hybrid in a phone. It was about the size of a 2 drawer file cabinet, with two discrete diode-transistor logic gates per card. The instructor didn't really understand how it worked, though WECO gear never broke.

In the field the data links all used 1200 Baud modems, mostly small, cheap, unreliable Lenkerts that I hadn't been taught. Some of the German phone lines the Army leased dated from WW2 and failed when wet. One passed through Berlin so we knew the Commies were recording the encrypted payroll data, which might tell them where the tanks are deployed.

It was difficult to find a scope to observe the eye pattern, so like a sonar operator I learned to diagnose problems by listening to the line with hi-Z headphones. During Nam the military was starved elsewhere to control costs, we couldn't even order windshield wiper blades and private purchases from J.C.Whitney kept the vehicles operating, and the Jeeps didn't remain stock for long. I bought a VW for $250 and drove it as much as permitted because it let me stay overnight in village inns (Gasthaus) instead of on Army bases. Rural Germany was really nice if you spoke the language because so few Americans had gone there to contaminate it.

.................. I savored every word ... kinda the story of my life , though in different fields . Ran a home repair or flooring install business days before I got into cabinet making , and delivered pizza at night to make ends meet . My wife was a stay-at-home mom (my idea, not hers), I wanted my kids raised by us instead of daycares and a succession of babysitters . I no longer feel driven to make ends meet ... our needs are simple , everything is paid for and between our SS and a small retirement from the wife's teaching days we're doing all right . Snag

------------------- I read all of it. When other kids were learning about Dick and Jane I was devouring biographies of adventurers and inventors, such as Roy Chapman Andrews and Hiram Maxim. I felt very out of place giving a book report on an epic destroyer vs U-boat battle when others had read what grade schoolers were supposed to.

Wayne Green the Byte publisher once used me at a party as a bad example of people who don't experience real life to the extent he thought proper, because I had taken what seemed to him a safe but boring government job (after a gypsy summer working at a Renaissance festival). His wife had been entertaining us with tales of bopping off to Paris for the weekend on some errand. Hey, I had Heidelberg, a university party town, and a French girl friend.

A lot of biographies, but other stuff as well. Harry Houdini and Benjamin Franklin come to mind as a couple I might have read twice.

---------------- Speaking of Franklin, this is still in my paste buffer from posting it in r.a.m, about food on the Space Station:

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