Rant: Some scrap dealers have no standards

Hi folks,
I met a guy who claims to be a machinery trader yesterday while I was looking for some JCB parts. I don't believe him, though. I think he's
effectively a scrap dealer. He showed me a Mark I JCB 3C which he bought last week for 800. A nice machine which has clearly been looked after. The cab was a bit tatty, but that was the only major problem it had. Ran really well. He says he's going to scrap it so that he can get just over 1000. I feel this is obscenely wasteful.
If I was a bit richer, I'd buy the machine to save it, but I already have a rarer Fordson-based 3C, and I can only cope with one battle at a time. He also told me that he'd recently scrapped a JCB 4D. That is tragic, as the 4D is probably the rarest and most impressive JCB ever made. If I had visited when the 4D was in his yard, I don't think I'd have been able to resist buying it.
I guess you can blame China to some extent for driving up scrap metal prices (for some light-hearted mockery of China, take a look at this: http://www.dickipedia.org/dick.php?title=China ). But the brunt of the blame lies with scrap dealers who take advantage of generous sellers and feel no guilt about scrapping good machines just to make a modest profit. I'm not saying I'm against people making money. I'm just against people making money through unacceptably wasteful and destructive means. It's not just one guy either. There are plenty of these guys out there destroying our industrial heritage. In my view, their behaviour is wholly unacceptable, on a level with that of pimps and loan sharks. It's a pity that there isn't a law which prevents this kind of thing.
If anyone in the Shropshire/Cheshire/North Wales area wants a Mark I JCB 3C (or the Nuffield engine, which is a great runner), drop me an e-mail (cdt22 AT cantabgold DOT net) and I'll give you the guy's number. You'll need to be quick, though, as he says he's scrapping it on Monday morning.
If there's one lesson we can learn from this, it's that if you can't keep a machine and yet you want to safeguard its future, you should know the scrap value of the machine and make sure that you set your price above it.
Best wishes,
Chris
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On Sat, 07 Jun 2008 18:19:50 +0000, Christopher Tidy

Couldn't agree with you more! I recently scrapped a shagged and completely un-desirable horizontal mill of no particular merit and still felt as guilty as hell.
It's really tragic to see some of the stuff being chucked just because some arse of an accountant says it too expensive to keep - I'm making a list for when I'm the effin' president!
I do need a bigger shed for all the TQT I'm preserving mind.....
Richard
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Richard wrote:
<snip>

I feel bad if I buy parts off a machine that someone else is scrapping, because I might be encouraging them to scrap it. But in most cases, I think that they've decided to scrap the machine anyway.
I hope a JCB 4D survives until I can afford one. There aren't many about and I'd love to own one.
Best wishes,
Chris
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because
making
scrapping,
I
about
Chris,
What was so special about the 4D? Bigger engine, longer reach or what?
AWEM (who's been pushing a pile of rubble arround all day with his 3CX !)
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wrote:

There was nothing special about the 4D.It was a clumsy slow beast of a machine.Had a Ford four cylinder engine that was famous for cracking blocks between two and three cylinders.Basically a Fordson Major with a JCB bucket and back hoe sat on top.Still a good few lying about in corners along with their equally useless cousin the Ford Whitlock digger. What Christopher is forgetting that these machines are only of interest to collectors.You would never get one hired on to a building site. What Christopher is also forgetting is that scrapmen are running a business.A scrap business is set up to process scrap metal.It doesn`t matter to the scrapman whether it`s a machine,digger,lorry or a pair of garden gates it`s just weight and weight is what he earns his money on.The more the better and it`s a case of into the yard,chopped/broken up and on to the next processor up the ladder before the price drops and he loses profit. Mark.
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snipped-for-privacy@ems-fife.co.uk wrote:
<snip>

I think you're mistaken. JCB stopped using Fordson engines and transmissions in 1965, but the JCB 4D didn't go into production until 1967. The Fordson units also had an excellent reputation for reliability and easy starting. The 4D used BMC Nuffield engines and transmissions (there is a possibility that these may have been branded Leyland in later years, but I'm not certain). The BMC Nuffield 10/60 60 hp engine was used until 1968, then the 4/65 65 hp engine until 1971. I believe the BMC engines had a more questionable reputation than the Fordson, although the one I saw yesterday ran very nicely.
The 4D is indeed a bit of a clumsy machine, and the 3C became the greater success because it was less clumsy. But the 4D's clumsiness is part of its appeal to a collector like myself.

Not on a major site, but there are plenty still working on farms and self-build sites. Many of these machines still work perfectly well.

I'm not forgetting anything. I just find it unacceptably wasteful to scrap machines that are in good working order. Either you agree with this statement or you don't. It's as simple as that.
Best wishes,
Chris
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wrote:

I always thought they were Leyland engines, that Nuffield fitted... The 4/65 was just the Nuffield tractor model number, not the engine number.
This 3C wouldn't happen to have the same engine as the 4/65 would it? My brother is looking for one at the moment, but it would be a bit of trek from Edinburgh to get it.
moray
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moray wrote:

Probably the 10/60 engine as this machine is a 1967 model. The guy did say he would sell the engine separately and it runs well. I'll send you an e-mail with his number.
Thanks for pointing out the difference between tractor models and engine numbers.
Best wishes,
Chris
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Christopher Tidy wrote:

The e-mail I sent you bounced. E-mail me at cdt22 AT cantabgold DOT net if you want his number, but be quick.
Best wishes,
Chris
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I think that the 4D was the Ford 4D engine and that they went on to the Nuffield with the 3C.The Nuffield later became the BMC 3.8 and 4.2 and was built at Bathgate.Were also used in the BMC angle cab lorries.FG`s I think they were.Had wet liners which were prone to cracking if the driver let the water run a bit low.An easy job to change a liner on a JCB but a backbreaker inside an angle cab.3C`s also used Perkins engines for a while and then went back to BMC`s.BMC Bathgate supplied the complete skid unit to JCB from the time it opened about 1965/66 apart from the period when JCB went to Perkins when they got fed up with the never ending shortages of engines from Bathgate due to strikes. I worked for a company who were major suppliers to BMC Bathgate and we also installed all their replacement machinery.Because of this we had to run BMC lorries and we had Nuffield tractors with winches for the machine moving.When I needed engine spares for the tractors I used to get the head of security who would take me up the FG engine line where I picked the parts I needed. These engines must be getting scarce now as I know a collector of Nuffields from Aberdeenshire who has just driven to Somerset to get an engine and it wasn`t cheap. Mark.
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snipped-for-privacy@ems-fife.co.uk wrote:

Well I've got a book about the different JCB models which says that the 4D used the Nuffield 10/60 and 4/65 skid units. It makes no mention of the use of Ford engines, and no mention of the use of Fordson engines after 1965. It could be wrong, but I doubt it.

Well this digger has a nice Nuffield engine. Probably a 10/60. E-mail me quick if you want the guy's number. It would be good if someone could make use of some parts from this machine. If I knew of a Nuffield collectors' forum I'd post a message there, but I don't.
Best wishes,
Chris
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Please tell me what a Nuffield engine is and where was it made.
Mark.
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snipped-for-privacy@ems-fife.co.uk wrote:

Is this a straightforward question? You seem to know as much as I do about them. It seems we disagree about what engine was in the JCB 4D, but I'm only going by the information in several books I have about JCBs by Michael D. J. Irwin.
Or if you want to know about that specific machine, I can give you the guy's details.
Best wishes,
Chris
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If there's one thing I've learnt about plant over the years, it's that you can never be sure what anythings got in it in the way of engines etc, and the situations not helped by the manufacturers, the parts information is often notoriously unreliable, just because they say they didn't fit X with Y after Z doesn't mean it didn't happen.
Then if the manufacturers didn't chop and change for reasons of price, supply etc etc etc, there's every chance some greasy little herbert of a fitter - like I used to be - ''modified'' or ''got over'' something to keep a usually tight fisted boss happy.
Nuffield engines were BMC and I agree with Mark McGrath, not all that. the BMC wet linered blocks always were a pot of poo, and haven't improved with time. Ford and Perkins had their faults agreed but at least they lasted longer between developing them.
Scrapmen,........ an items worth whatever someone is prepared to pay for it, if by chance you come across something you can't live without and it's going for scrap, then the basic rules of business dictate you pay at least that price.
It's called the free market, and if you don't like that aspect of said market, don't expect your house to increase in value like it has for the last 5 plus years.
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snipped-for-privacy@fig24.wanadoo.co.uk wrote:

It just annoys me when they junk good machines to make a small amount of cash. I see it as unnecessarily wasteful.
Best wishes,
Chris
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snipped-for-privacy@fig24.wanadoo.co.uk wrote:

What I found funny was that JCB stopped using Fordson skid units because Ford couldn't meet the demand. But they then publicised the switch to Nuffields as a big improvement in reliability and ease of servicing :-).
Best wishes,
Chris
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You may find this enlightening.
http://www.tractordata.co.uk/nuffield/index.htm
Mark.
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snipped-for-privacy@ems-fife.co.uk wrote:

Thanks. That's interesting.
Best wishes,
Chris
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Here`s some more.This is from a pdf of a lecture in 2008
" the lecture was Paul Spray, a senior design engineer with JCB Power Systems, and his role was to introduce the audience to a in depth tour of the intricacies of the new JCB 444 engine. A little history to first wet the appetite as to the origins of JCB and its current development of an engine of its own making. JCB was founded in 1945, and has grown from humble beginnings to now employing 5500 staff worldwide spread over 7 plants with a 1.2billion turnover. The engine saga began in the 1950s with JCB originally taking a Ford skid unit and converting it into a yellow digger. In the 1970s Leyland engines were fitted into the JCB product, with a change in 1982 to a Perkins lump. The Perkins was fitted into the backhoe loader until 2004 (about the same time as CAT purchased Perkins) when the new JCB 4 cylinder unit was brought on stream. The company still continue to use other engines from Cum"
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snipped-for-privacy@ems-fife.co.uk wrote:

Out of interest, does anyone have an opinion as to which of the Nuffield 10/60 or 4/65 tractors was better? I'm curious in case I buy a JCB 4D one day.
Best wishes,
Chris
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