The uncertainty is warranted, unless you have more tautologies to spew:
URL:
-- Joe Foster DC8s in Spaace: WARNING: I cannot be held responsible for the above They're coming to because my cats have apparently learned to type. take me away, ha ha!
Talking to a doll in order to get it to do things is no more stupid than it would be to push buttons on it in order to make it do things. It's simply a different user interface.
You might want to look up the fighter aircraft industry and their use of voice control in the cockpit :-)
Cheers Bent D
Very few people believe that animals are human's intellectual equals. You keep putting words in other's mouths and then calling them liars.
I do believe that self-awareness (sentience) is a continuous function and that many species of animals are self-aware. Of course, since we are only beginning to understand the mechanisms of self-awareness I can't prove thiss
However, after being close to dogs for several years there does seem to be some sentience. Even my senegal parrot seems to show self-awareness. And no, I don't believe either are up to human standards.
I'll admit that there are some who believe that animals are their equals. Perhaps they are right. :)
-- D. Jay Newman
I disagree, I don't believe lower mammals are self aware, as it is=20 commonly defined;
self-a=B7ware (slf-w=E2r) adj.
Aware of oneself, including one's traits, feelings, and behaviors.
I have never seen my dogs exhibit their being aware that they are dogs.=20 Yes, there is life, and a rudimentary intelligence mostly learned via=20 experience due to use of rewards and punishment. But, I know of no=20 animal that is aware of it's position in phylum, simply because it=20 requires intelligence to grasp the concept of phylums.
As far as machine "intelligence" I am unaware of any AI or expert system =
arriving at the conclusion that "it" is a computer software system --=20 more a requirement of being self-aware then a sign of intelligence.
On Fri, 02 Jan 2004 17:49:00 GMT, Joseph Dionne wrote or quoted :
What's so special about that? First you can't measure it. It sounds to me like an artificial distinction rigged to make man win, sort of like a racist defining intelligence as lightness of skin.
There are obviously many kinds of intelligence. We completely devalue any sort of intelligence we are weak in.
When I asked Dr. John Lilly what he thought dolphins did with their huge brains he said "Something else". I asked if there was anyway to get a glimpse of what that was. He said "Yes, swim with them.".
Until someone has performed at least that tiny experiment, I look on people who pontificate on animal stupidity as like children who pontificate on sex.
-- Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green. Coaching, problem solving, economical contract programming. See
Please stop wasting your time.
I believe that Dr. Allan Comeau did a fine job writing about the various forms of intelligence in the December, 2003 issue of SERVO Magazine.
Dan Danknick Technical Editor, SERVO
---------------------- Speaking of me, you, or the generic "you"? ;->
----------------------- Point being that it is impossible to conceive of an awareness less aware than ours beyond a small fraction. And there's a structural reason for that other than simple hubris. Awareness is an entirely separated meta-level of complexity. You are totally and completely unable to even imagine being non-conscious, it is impossible.
In fact, I assert it that this Awareness is, in fact, the One and ONLY EXISTENCE! I believe that the material world is produced and evoked as a representational structure within our awareness only, and does not exist by itself. Whatever is non-conscious does not truly even exist EXCEPT as a part of OUR awareness. In this I am in good company, as this grows directly out of the Many Worlds Interpretation of QM. When we believe we are in this Life, we ARE! And when we believe we are in another Life, AGAIN, HERE WE ARE!
Only the Information exists, for which matter and energy are naught but representational. The world isn't made of matter, because the Only World that can be Experienced is Life, and Life is made only of Stories. That the World is made of atoms is just ONE KIND of Story among the Infinity of All Stories. (Paraphrasing Neils Bohr.)
-Steve
-Steve
------------------------------- No, this isn't a straw man. This is a more subtle point. People have this pathetic fallacy that if it has a face and functions, that it is Self-Aware, not realizing the recent nature of that development.
-------------------------------- If you have researched animal behavior you will know that can't be so, if you are honest/not deluded. When we even TRY to imagine being so much less aware, so as to rationalize how the animals experience their own animal behaviors, we suddenly come to the conclusion that we would have to give up far too much of what we call being aware, to actually persist in the belief that they are.
We know that we cannot imagine not being Aware, and yet that IS what we are called upon to do regarding even most higher mammals if we are to imagine being one of them. We literally have to give up the kernel of our Awareness so as not to be merely a human in a lion suit pretending. We cannot mentally emulate them, without losing the very Awareness that is trying to do so.
-------------------------- A few of these thought experiments is all I require.
------------------------------- And I also know that they cogitate, but the subtle point here is that they don't KNOW that they do so!! That knowing, this watching of onesself iswhat Awareness is, and THEY DON'T!! If they did, for instance if those parrots did, then they could talk ABOUT themselves doing things, and their experience of that!! Gorillas sure, maybe, apes, cetceans,well maybe, but not the other so-called higher mammals or anything lower.
-Steve
---------------------------- It's fine, we all like John Lilly, but that's not the point. He has a religion based on LSD and Dolphins, and I join him in the LSD part at least, but I have to be true to what I see. I see that no lower animals talk about themselves lower than apes and cetaceans, maybe.
That means they aren't Aware they Exist! And without that, you're JUST NOT HOME!
-Steve
----------- Well? What did he say?
-Steve
Just because you can't conceive of something doesn't mean that some of the rest of us can.
You spout a lot of jargon that sounds like it should mean something, but in fact, is gibberish.
Back up what you say with facts rather than words and maybe you'll say something worth paying attention to.
-- D. Jay Newman
I was responding to a statement which was designed to establish that talking to objects is somehow an inherently idiotic thing to do. I have demonstrated why this is not the case.
What "Aware" has to do with it, I do not know and I do not care.
Cheers Bent D
It appears that you believe that the animals that preceded us, during the "non cognitively (self-)aware era" of animal evolution on this planet, never existed!
You should take good care of yourself, because, judging by the irrationality of what you wrote, it could be a signature of a border-line (or soon to be 'over-the-line') psychosis!
P
-------------- No, you can't either. You're just assuming that if you say it, that it means something.
Now if you're not a coward who is merely spewing insult, you'll tell me what you failed to understand here below:
"Point being that it is impossible to conceive of an awareness less aware than ours beyond a small fraction. And there's a structural reason for that other than simple hubris. Awareness is an entirely separated meta-level of complexity. You are totally and completely unable to even imagine being non-conscious, it is impossible.
In fact, I assert it that this Awareness is, in fact, the One and ONLY EXISTENCE! I believe that the material world is produced and evoked as a representational structure within our awareness only, and does not exist by itself. Whatever is non-conscious does not truly even exist EXCEPT as a part of OUR awareness. In this I am in good company, as this grows directly out of the Many Worlds Interpretation of QM. When we believe we are in this Life, we ARE! And when we believe we are in another Life, AGAIN, HERE WE ARE!
Only the Information exists, for which matter and energy are naught but representational. The world isn't made of matter, because the Only World that can be Experienced is Life, and Life is made only of Stories. That the World is made of atoms is just ONE KIND of Story among the Infinity of All Stories. (Paraphrasing Neils Bohr.)"
----------------- No, I don't, it's all quite well thought-out, actually, you just didn't try to understand it.
--------------------- Facts aren't, the only real things are ideas. Only insufferable boors imagine that facts are more real than ideas.
-Steve
Good bye and good luck.
-Steve
----------------------------- True, that form of "time" is not the same at all, for instance, than time since you woke up this morning, or time since you were born, or several other kinds of "time" which actually deserve seperate and quite different names, in some future more descriptive language, and they shouldn't be mistaken for something as real as here/now.
------------------------- This doesn't make ME crazy, does it you?
And do you actually imagine that all people who think of things that startle or frighten you must be insane instead of merely being much deeper thinkers??
-Steve
On Mon, 05 Jan 2004 02:14:39 GMT, "R. Steve Walz" wrote or quoted :
generic.
-- Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green. Coaching, problem solving, economical contract programming. See
On Mon, 05 Jan 2004 02:14:39 GMT, "R. Steve Walz" wrote or quoted :
On the other hand, we know that our awareness is only a minute fraction of our intelligence. We do most of our processing without being aware of the computation.
Personal awareness is the only fact you can be truly sure of. You can postulate a universe where you are the only being, and you make all you perceive up in an elaborate dream to entertain yourself. It would be very hard to find a proof that was NOT so. You decide to discard the model because it is unappealing and it still does not help you to control the "dream" any better.
In a similar way, you can look at the universe in an relativistic way, and postulate you are the center of it. When you walk, you are spinning the world. When you turn, you are twisting the world. Einstein says this is a valid view. Some people try it out for a while but discard it for the conventional one.
The other thing you have to keep reminding yourself is that you always interact with the universe via an internal REPRESENATION of it, something like map, not directly. All you really "see" are blinking neurons going on and off in your brain. You conjure up your image of the world from that binary input. Even normal perception is a sort of hallucination.
-- Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green. Coaching, problem solving, economical contract programming. See
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