A couple of questions on LEUP

I just got my L1 cert and plan to get L2 in the future. With that said I guess that I will need to apply for a LEUP?
Finding the application form is easy. I'm looking ofr some instructions on how to fill out the form. How much does it cost? And does it need to be renewed yearly?
I'm assuming there is a webpage somewhere that explains all of this. But I have not ran accross it yet.
Thanks

You really should talk to your motor vendor and local TRA Prefect or NAR HPR person about LEUPs.
The NAR has some info on the http://nar.org/cabinet/index.shtml page. Another page is at http://xtratime.net/leup/leup.htm
I used the page at http://www.tulsarocketry.org/LEUPTutorial.htm and my agent didn't have any suggested changes.
The BATFE pages are at http://www.atf.gov /
Tripoli has some stuff at http://www.tripoli.org/documents/batfe/batfe.shtml about the lawsuit and the NAR stuff is at http://www.nar.org/legislative.html
Most vendors will tell you that you can buy/fly hybrids without an LEUP. Your mileage may vary.     Will
rodentkj wrote:
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I'd sure like to hear of the motor vendor that tells a guy in the US that you need a LEUP for a hybrid ;-)
Mono tube and hyper-tek hybrides don't need LEUPs. (see typo)
Some of the old Aero-tech L&M AP boosted motors did, but are not made anymore.

Depends on what you want to do.. The Pyro (ejection) change and squib very well might require a LEUP depending on who you ask, and what you plan on using. This is the part that most people miss when the claim Hybrids are "permit free"... These motors will often require an ejection charge!
Daveyfire (squibs) pretty much dropped out of the business due to the new regs, and it seems that it's hard to find someone who sells BP without a permit...
wrote in message> Mono tube and hyper-tek hybrides don't need LEUPs. (see typo)
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AZ Woody wrote:
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The piece of APCP used by all that I know of is under the 62.5g limit. SkyRipper has the paperwork to be able to ship their preheaters via USPS.
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DaveyFire dropped out because the owner hates the rocketry hobby; he no longer sells to fireworks companies, either.
-Kevin

Kevin... You missed the point about the pyro.. (4fg BP, etc). Orxal squibs may also require a LEUP, and the same with any other replacement to the Daveyfires. Daveyfire NEVER was thrilled about selling to us rocket folks, and their "closing down" just eliminated the backdoor thru the fireworks crowd.
I'm not talking about firing the hybrid, but the ejection charge! How many folks fly hybrids without some type of recovery? And now many of those plan BP with a squib triggered by electronics?
End result, is that to do hybrids, you need to use (common route) a squib and BP - either one of which may require a LEUP based on who you talk to. So, hybrids (any - even if they don't use APCP to start it), to be actually be used, may still require a LEUP!
I've yet to hear of any HB manufacturer which ships BP for an ejection with their reloads.
Yes, the ATF restrictions hit ALL motors... Not just APCP!
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Hmmm, 3g of BP is regulated but an A3-4T is not. There's got to be a way to use commonly available BP motors for ejection chcarges.
    Bob Kaplow    NAR # 18L    TRA # "Impeach the TRA BoD"         >>> To reply, remove the TRABoD! <<< Kaplow Klips & Baffle:    http://nira-rocketry.org/LeadingEdge/Phantom4000.pdf www.encompasserve.org/~kaplow_r/ www.nira-rocketry.org www.nar.org
"For as adamant as my country has been about civil liberties during peacetime, it has a long history ... of failing to preserve civil liberties when it perceived its national security threatened." -- former Supreme Court Justice William Brennan

kaplow snipped-for-privacy@encompasserve.org.TRABoD (Bob Kaplow) wrote:
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Insert umteenth repost of Federal firearms BP exemption language here.
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Ok, how do we use a shotgun shell to shoot out a recovery system? ANd how do you fire one electrically?
    Bob Kaplow    NAR # 18L    TRA # "Impeach the TRA BoD"         >>> To reply, remove the TRABoD! <<< Kaplow Klips & Baffle:    http://nira-rocketry.org/LeadingEdge/Phantom4000.pdf www.encompasserve.org/~kaplow_r/ www.nira-rocketry.org www.nar.org
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, except to encourage attendance in Christian churches; or prohibiting the free exercise thereof, except to require prayer in schools; or abridging the freedom of speech, except for those questioning the Bush administration; or of the press, except that not owned by Rupert Murdoch; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, except those protesting pre-emptive wars; and to petition the government for a redress of grievance, except those we don't like." -former U.S. Sen. Gary Hart

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Start looking on the web. shotgun shells and similar non-shotgun shells are use to power many PAD devices.
heck, they even where used after a fasion to start old style WWII airplane engines.
watch Flight of the Pheonix.

AlMax wrote:
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We used to use them to emergency start the power generators on Mt. Wilson in case the power to the television transmitter went out.
David Erbas-White

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Which TV station?

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I poked at this a few weeks ago during the initial design phase of my Level-1 project, a 5.5x upscale of the Estes Streak. Various ejection charge calculators indicate the need for 1.25 (averaged) grams of BP to eject the nose cone and parachute by altimeter at 400 feet.
Since the corner of southeastern Georgia where I live practically qualifies as a Third-World country there is no local source of FFFg black powder within practical driving distance.
I've constructed a test rig with leftover body tube (even at 5.5x a Streak uses less than half of a 48 inch tube) a bulkhead plate and my nose cone. I filled the empty space with dog barf to simulate the parachute and harness. When ignited, the nose cone did come off, but the wadding stayed in place because the exhaust stream of the motor simply punched a hole roughly the size of a pencil through the mass of wadding.
Apparently (and I have no instrumented readings to back this up but it passes the TLAR test) a BP ejection charges fires in a few dozen milliseconds generating copious amounts of gas instantenously. Even though the 1/2A3T-2 I used burns for less than half a second the slowly rising pressure curve lets too much gas escape around the nosecone shoulder to provide the 'kick' required to reliably get the laundry up and out.
A piston design *might* work, but there is no way to fit a piston into the Streak. Some googling returned a few pages where people have had success with Pryodex and some smokeless powders and I will try to duplicate their results and see what happens. I hesitate because the level of constraint required to generate the pressure necessary to insure complete combustion makes the divide between an ejection charge and a firecracker pretty narrow.
John<==maybe a D12-0 ? It either ejects or burns up !

I figured that I would open a can of worms when I posted this question. I thank everyone for the input.
Let me break this down and put it in more simple terms.
I know that the law is a bit "gray" at best. Depending on whom you speak with. And I know some dealers will sell "Easy Access" reloads to anyone and some will only sell to people who have shown them proof of a LEUP. I also know that being L1 or L2 really has no relation to having a LEUP.
So, here are some more direct questions.
1. To store (legally), in my place of residence, a motor that has 62.5g of propellant I need to have a LEUP. Correct? (Yes, I know in order to store in an attached garage I have to have pre- approval form the local Fire Dept under NFPA 1127 and all the other BATF requirments)
2. In order for me to put those motors in my car and drive somewhere within state I also need a LEUP??
Again, I'm not concerned with whom or how to get reloads. But rather the storage and transportation of the stuff. And if it is as easy as spending $100.00 to ensure I'm within the law I want to do that.

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The law is sooo NOT gray
Here's the law that shows that:
27 CFR 555.11, Propellant Actuated Device. Any tool or special mechanized device or gas generator system which is actuated by a propellant or which releases and directs work through a propellant charge.
27 CFR 555.141 exemptions (a) (8) Gasoline, fertilizers, propellant actuated devices, or propellant actuated industrial tools manufactured, imported, or distributed for their intended purposes.
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List them and endorse them.
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Shun them AND publicly ostracize them.
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No.
Incorrect.
Incorrect.
Wrong again. Consumer (non-commercial) is DOT exempt.
ALL sport rocket goods and related tools are ATF exempt.
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Nope. Getting an ATF permit for EXEMPT goods CONFUSES all authorities and inappropriately puts you on the very treadmill these incompetent folks keep posting about re ATF etc.
Warning.
Jerry

rodentkj wrote:
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Again you are asking things for which the answers will depend on who you ask. The law says all Propellent Actuated Devices are exempt, so if you go by what the law says, you don't need a LEUP and you don't need a magazine. Obviously, the ATF would say that you need a LEUP and storage, because the ATF believes that high power motors are not PADs and are not exempt. Does this mean the ATF is going to kick your door in and drag you off to jail if you have an H motor in your house without permits and storage? No! The ATF doesn't even know you exist unless you make yourself and your activities known to them. Would you be completely 100% risk-free if you do not conform to ATF policy? Probably not.
So there's what the law says, there's what the ATF says, and there's what you can actually do regardless of either the law or the ATF. Only you can decide which route to take. Only you can decide what level of risk you are comfortable with. If you're the kind of person who doesn't want any risk of being considered in violation, no matter how remote the odds, then get yourself a LEUP just to cover your butt. If you're a more rational kind of person, you can just continue business as usual, and wait to see how the lawsuit turns out before inviting the ATF into your life.
It's all up to you. No one here can make the choice for you.
r

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I just hope nobody is foolish enough to listen to you.
Jerry
Hope springs eternal.

Jerry Irvine wrote:
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Hmm, let's see... which of us has a "big fine" due to following his own interpretation of federal regs??
BTW, just out of curiosity, precisely which part of the above post do you object to? Is it the part where I said a rational person would continue business as usual until the lawsuit is settled, before deciding whether or not a LEUP is necessary? Or is it the part where I said that an extremely risk-adverse individual can get a LEUP to cover their butt? Or perhaps you object to my statement that the choice is up to the individual?
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You just love to fixate on a single DOT event from 2001 (which required a narc to motivate), yet you "link" that to my position on ATF (an entirely different agency) even though it is 100% consistent with the lawsuit.
Hmmm.
You --are-- a troll.
Or maybe the dog that squirted the golden poop and then reverted back to "normal".
Just as you were testing it using your teeth.
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One cannot "comply" by getting a permit for an exempt item.
One can waste their time, but not comply.
Jerry