Re: [FFT] Cert vs LEUP Q !!!

Thanks for all the "clarifications", etc. :^)
Glad we got the issue of waivers all sorted out, though since I fly at
waivered club launches, it wasn't a problem for me.
What I find a bit more distressing is that, depending on how the legal
issues are eventually resolved, someone in a position such as myself who
wants to fly LEUP-free clusters could have to 1) get a LEUP to
2) buy an H to
3) be able to get an L1 cert to
4) be able to free said LEUP-free clusters
What a wonderful Catch-22.
Why in the world can't one cert on a cluster instead of a single motor?!
Reply to
bit eimer
Loading thread data ...
2 reasons
1) Because NFPA 1127 says:
5.4.1 Certification of a user shall require both of the following:
(1) Proof that the user is at least 18 years old (2) Proof that the user posesses a level of knowledge and competence in handling, storing, and using a high power solid-propellant rocket motor and high power rockets that is acceptable to the certifying organization.
Flying a cluster could demonstrate the require knowledge and competence of high power rockets but not of high power rocket motors.
2) Because the certifying organizations (NAR and TRA)) require it.
Reply to
David Schultz
The format of the present cert requirements has roots in the original TRA "confirmed consumer of high power motors" program, also known as "come on, I dare ya!... who's afraid of the big bad H motor?"
-dave w
Reply to
David Weinshenker
I find this particularly amusing, since I plan to certify with a "no brainer" single use H in a "no brainer" Art Applewhite saucer (no offense). Fact is, this demostrates neither knowledge nor competence in flying EITHER high power rockets or high power rocket motors.
OTOH, flying a real rockets with 3 reloadable G64s demonstrates both.
I jsut love this kind of answer - reminds me of what I sometimes say to my kids (but shouldn't): "BECAUSE I SAID SO"
Contributes absolutely nothing to the collective understanding.
Reply to
bit eimer
This should be a lesson to anyone trying to have ab intelligent conversation when Jerry is involved. It ain't gonna happen!
Reply to
Phil Stein
It's NAR and TRA that you should be ragging on, not Jerry - he's not saying "because I said so" on his own behalf, but describing such an (apparent) attitude on the part of the orgs.
-dave w
Reply to
David Weinshenker
I would expect that *IF* the BATFE ever gets their harsh limits imposed on us, we'll see several changes to NFPA stuff to cover situations like this.
Ironically, under the interim HPR certification program originally implemented by the NAR back in 1991, you could L1 certify on a cluster of D12 motors!
Bob Kaplow NAR # 18L TRA # "Impeach the TRA BoD" >>> To reply, remove the TRABoD!
Reply to
Bob Kaplow
The cluster rule was a result of a sufficiently unsafe flight to cause the orgs to not allow them for cert flights.
A cert flight shows that you can safely use a motor from the power class you are being cert'd in - not that you can cluster 3 motors of a lower class.
In the recent past, I believe Bit brought up the same discussion. I understand the reasoning behind both sides of the argument. As members of these organizations, we elect people to direct how the organization should be run and what the rules should be and we have the rules our government has imposed on us. If these guys don't like it, they can run for government office or BOT or BOD or they can lobby for a change in the rules. This is a very simple concept. Don't expect the rules to chane anytime soon unless you do more than whine on rmr.
answer isn't going to change any time soon.
Reply to
Phil Stein
Agreed, but the Art Applewhite saucer on a H123 is great(I won one in descon). My wife is planning of going for L1 soon and she bought both a LOC Forte and a Art Applewhite saucer. That way if it is windy when it comes time to attempt her L1 she can fly the saucer or if it is nice she will fly the LOC Forte. Of course, I would like to see her launch both on the same day(one to cert and the other as a victory launch if she is successfull on the first launch)
Reply to
Zak Orion
You do NOT need a LEUP to buy an H motor, nor do you need a LEUP to certify at any level.
Because the main purpose of flyer certs is to give the flyer a legal way to purchase and use high power motors under the NFPA codes. It dates back to the pre-high power days, when commercial high power motors were restricted to only governments, colleges, and licensed businesses/corporations.

Reply to
raydunakin
You do NOT need a LEUP to buy an H motor, nor do you need a LEUP to certify at any level.
Because the main purpose of flyer certs is to give the flyer a legal way to purchase and use high power motors under the NFPA codes. It dates back to the pre-high power days, when commercial high power motors were restricted to only governments, colleges, and licensed businesses/corporations.
ROFL... Please define commercial high power motors as such that were restricted to the entities you list AND exactly how that relates to the current use of "high power motor" in hobby rocketry?
Certs by organizations were for SAFETY levels of competence, first and foremost... not legal purchases. You've got the cart before the horse. "Legal" infers governmental regulatory control, which by your OWN arguments is _not_ equated with org rules.
~ Duane "ignore the laughter, I'm in a rare mood today" Phillips.
Reply to
Duane Phillips
back in the day, you had to belong to a corporation under nfpa 1122 to use PADs that were defined to have more then 62.5 grams of propellant. While they were PADs in the 1980s, yes they were, you had to comply with NFPA 1122.
that is why Tripoli became a corp, so that you could be part of it's research activities and fly class "B" PADS.
when the later 1127 NFPA 'rules' or 'codes' came about, the coded that to buy HPR motors, you need to be certified by an authority. with TRA and NAR as de-fact-o authorities.
so, call it codes or rules, but that is what happened.
Reply to
AlMax
Doesn't that depend on the extent to which individual jurisdictions were actually considering rockets to be "forbidden, except for those 'model rockets' within the scope of NFPA-1122"?
-dave w
Reply to
David Weinshenker
False.
NFPA-XXXX
BS, and if that was the excuse, it was propoganda.
Similar to TRA BoD voting that HPR magazine will now be 12 issues.
If you believe that, I have a continennt to sell you in the mid-Atlantic.
A rule TRA itself added. A bad rule that needs to be changed ASAP.
Jerry
TRA member# 012
Reply to
Jerry Irvine
restricted to
NFPA 1122 defined model rocket motors and limited access to anything larger than a model rocket motor. The exemptions are as follows:
NFPA 1122 states: "1-1.4 This code shall not apply to the design, construction, production, manufacture fabrication, maintenance, launching, flight, test, operation, use, or other activity in connection with a rocket or rocket motor when carried out or engaged in by: (a) the government of the United States of America; (b) any state or local government; (c) any individual, firm, partnership, joint venture, corporation, or other business entity engaged, as a licensed business, in research, development, production, test, maintenance, or supply of rockets, rocket motors, rocket propellent chemicals, or rocket component parts;
(d) any college or university."
Under NFPA 1122, if you wanted to buy motors larger than modrocs, you had to fit into one of these exempt categories.
If you'd been in this hobby long enough, you'd know that what we call a "certification" today was originally called "consumer confirmation". It was intended to show that the individual was a member of a licensed, non-profit corporation. Here's a quote from the 1987 Tripoli member's handbook:
"As a member of Tripoli, a non-profit business for the advancement of Non-Professional Rocketry, we are exempt per part (c) of the above.
"Each person joining the Tripoli Rocketry Association, Inc. receives a special Consumer Confirmation Card. The first part is your membership card in the Association. This alone will permit you to purchase any Class C motors, even those not NAR certified or safety approved.
"Parts Two and Three are identical. These two parts, when signed by an Authorized Person will permit you to purchase Class B motors as an agent of the Corporation. Please do not abuse this privilege!"
In this case, org rules provide a means of compliance with the law.
Reply to
raydunakin
Where does it say that anyone (except those entities to which NFPA-1122 did not apply) is forbidden to use motors other than the "model rocket motors" whose use is regulated therein?
-dave w
Reply to
David Weinshenker

Site Timeline

PolyTech Forum website is not affiliated with any of the manufacturers or service providers discussed here. All logos and trade names are the property of their respective owners.