Re: [FFT] Cert vs LEUP Q !!!

Thanks for all the "clarifications", etc. :^)
Glad we got the issue of waivers all sorted out, though since I fly at
waivered club launches, it wasn't a problem for me.
What I find a bit more distressing is that, depending on how the legal issues are eventually resolved, someone in a position such as myself who wants to fly LEUP-free clusters could have to 1) get a LEUP to 2) buy an H to 3) be able to get an L1 cert to 4) be able to free said LEUP-free clusters
What a wonderful Catch-22.
Why in the world can't one cert on a cluster instead of a single motor?!
--
...The Bit Eimer NAR 84054 L0
"My goal in life is to be the kind of person my cat thinks he is"
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The NFPA rules were written by the "Sport Rocket Caucus". I suggest you tell them your concerns.
Jerry
--
Jerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA
Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to: snipped-for-privacy@gte.net>
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bit eimer wrote:

2 reasons
1) Because NFPA 1127 says:
5.4.1 Certification of a user shall require both of the following:
(1) Proof that the user is at least 18 years old (2) Proof that the user posesses a level of knowledge and competence in handling, storing, and using a high power solid-propellant rocket motor and high power rockets that is acceptable to the certifying organization.
Flying a cluster could demonstrate the require knowledge and competence of high power rockets but not of high power rocket motors.
2) Because the certifying organizations (NAR and TRA)) require it.
--
David W. Schultz
http://home.earthlink.net/~david.schultz
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David Schultz wrote:

The format of the present cert requirements has roots in the original TRA "confirmed consumer of high power motors" program, also known as "come on, I dare ya!... who's afraid of the big bad H motor?"
-dave w
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<snip>

I find this particularly amusing, since I plan to certify with a "no brainer" single use H in a "no brainer" Art Applewhite saucer (no offense). Fact is, this demostrates neither knowledge nor competence in flying EITHER high power rockets or high power rocket motors.
OTOH, flying a real rockets with 3 reloadable G64s demonstrates both.

I jsut love this kind of answer - reminds me of what I sometimes say to my kids (but shouldn't): "BECAUSE I SAID SO"
Contributes absolutely nothing to the collective understanding.
--
...The Bit Eimer NAR 84054 L0
"My goal in life is to be the kind of person my cat thinks he is"
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So it captures the ethic of rocket club regulatory practices perfectly.
--
Jerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA
Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to: snipped-for-privacy@gte.net>
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wrote:

This should be a lesson to anyone trying to have ab intelligent conversation when Jerry is involved. It ain't gonna happen!
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Phil Stein wrote:

It's NAR and TRA that you should be ragging on, not Jerry - he's not saying "because I said so" on his own behalf, but describing such an (apparent) attitude on the part of the orgs.
-dave w
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On Mon, 28 Feb 2005 08:46:24 -0800, David Weinshenker

The cluster rule was a result of a sufficiently unsafe flight to cause the orgs to not allow them for cert flights.
A cert flight shows that you can safely use a motor from the power class you are being cert'd in - not that you can cluster 3 motors of a lower class.
In the recent past, I believe Bit brought up the same discussion. I understand the reasoning behind both sides of the argument. As members of these organizations, we elect people to direct how the organization should be run and what the rules should be and we have the rules our government has imposed on us. If these guys don't like it, they can run for government office or BOT or BOD or they can lobby for a change in the rules. This is a very simple concept. Don't expect the rules to chane anytime soon unless you do more than whine on rmr.
answer isn't going to change any time soon.
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Agreed, but the Art Applewhite saucer on a H123 is great(I won one in descon). My wife is planning of going for L1 soon and she bought both a LOC Forte and a Art Applewhite saucer. That way if it is windy when it comes time to attempt her L1 she can fly the saucer or if it is nice she will fly the LOC Forte. Of course, I would like to see her launch both on the same day(one to cert and the other as a victory launch if she is successfull on the first launch)

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I would expect that *IF* the BATFE ever gets their harsh limits imposed on us, we'll see several changes to NFPA stuff to cover situations like this.
Ironically, under the interim HPR certification program originally implemented by the NAR back in 1991, you could L1 certify on a cluster of D12 motors!
    Bob Kaplow    NAR # 18L    TRA # "Impeach the TRA BoD"         >>> To reply, remove the TRABoD! <<< Kaplow Klips & Baffle:    http://nira-rocketry.org/LeadingEdge/Phantom4000.pdf www.encompasserve.org/~kaplow_r/ www.nira-rocketry.org www.nar.org
We must have faith in our democratic system and our Constitution, and in our ability to protect at the same time both the freedom and the security of all Americans.
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bit eimer wrote:

at
legal
who
You do NOT need a LEUP to buy an H motor, nor do you need a LEUP to certify at any level.

motor?!
Because the main purpose of flyer certs is to give the flyer a legal way to purchase and use high power motors under the NFPA codes. It dates back to the pre-high power days, when commercial high power motors were restricted to only governments, colleges, and licensed businesses/corporations.

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bit eimer wrote:

at
legal
who
You do NOT need a LEUP to buy an H motor, nor do you need a LEUP to certify at any level.

motor?!
Because the main purpose of flyer certs is to give the flyer a legal way to purchase and use high power motors under the NFPA codes. It dates back to the pre-high power days, when commercial high power motors were restricted to only governments, colleges, and licensed businesses/corporations.
ROFL... Please define commercial high power motors as such that were restricted to the entities you list AND exactly how that relates to the current use of "high power motor" in hobby rocketry?
Certs by organizations were for SAFETY levels of competence, first and foremost... not legal purchases. You've got the cart before the horse. "Legal" infers governmental regulatory control, which by your OWN arguments is _not_ equated with org rules.
~ Duane "ignore the laughter, I'm in a rare mood today" Phillips.
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arguments
back in the day, you had to belong to a corporation under nfpa 1122 to use PADs that were defined to have more then 62.5 grams of propellant. While they were PADs in the 1980s, yes they were, you had to comply with NFPA 1122.
that is why Tripoli became a corp, so that you could be part of it's research activities and fly class "B" PADS.
when the later 1127 NFPA 'rules' or 'codes' came about, the coded that to buy HPR motors, you need to be certified by an authority. with TRA and NAR as de-fact-o authorities.
so, call it codes or rules, but that is what happened.
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AlMax wrote:

Doesn't that depend on the extent to which individual jurisdictions were actually considering rockets to be "forbidden, except for those 'model rockets' within the scope of NFPA-1122"?
-dave w
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It never helps to point out the obvious. The post just caught me in a funny mood. I try to abstain from joining in on the banter... who and where what rules are or were made or enforced is a pointless conversation in this forum.
Ray is a fierce apologist for the orgs. It is just funny sometimes...
~ Duane Phillips.
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Point.
--
Jerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA
Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to: snipped-for-privacy@gte.net>
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Jerry Irvine wrote:

Who shipped rocket motors labeled as model airplane parts?
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You just LOVE to change the subject back to that over and over.
The fact it is clearly off-topic also indicates it is intentional harassment.
Jerry
--
Jerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA
Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to: snipped-for-privacy@gte.net>
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Jerry Irvine wrote:

It's all part of the "mosaic", deal with it.
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