My Suggestion for the NO-Cert crowd.......

IF you don't like the current NAR/TRA/NFPA triumvirate running your HPR activities then I have one suggestion:
Go before your State Fire Marshall, and propose that he unadopt NFPA
1125/1127 and replace it with a state specific state run HPR licensing and permit program like CA has.....
But wait, you don't even want that!.... You want NO user or motor certs at all!... Good luck on that one...
Its simple what Iz and Jerry and Ferrell want: They want a Total completely absolutely positively Non-Regulatory world in which anybody can "fly and buy hpr" without user certs or motor certs..... Sorry folks its too late, you are now just "raging against the machine".......or banging your head against the wall....OUCH .....
It would be so nice if we all lived in a "kinder and gentler" world where there was no bad people that want to do bad things to other people....where the lamb will lay down with the lion.....wait a minute, this sounds like heaven? Instead of ranting and raving in RMR for all of eternity , why not make the current system better for all? All I hear is how to tear down the current system and how bad it is, with no thoughts on how to work within the current system and make it better for all.....
Don't want to have to cert? don't want to pay for the privilege to "fly and buy hpr" ? well you also have another option: make your own HPR motors and fly on your own time... No user or motor certs required there.... No license no permits no nothing required...so go to it... good riddance..don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out....
shockie B)
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Well said, Shock!
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snipped-for-privacy@aol.com (RayDunakin) wrote:

Hey Shockie, now that Ray has agreed with you, do you agree your position is wrong?
Jerry
--
Jerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA
Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to: snipped-for-privacy@gte.net>
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That's the most compelling argument I've heard so far. Still haven't changed my mind though.
If you guys want a membership card that doesn't expire, buy an eraser.
wrote:

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I see we agree on that.

--
Jerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA
Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to: snipped-for-privacy@gte.net>
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at
Well... that's not exactly what they're talking about... is it.
But you already know that, don't you. ;)
OK, I'll bite. Again.
You gave you're opinion... ;)

this
LOL! Bad people? LOL!
Bad people can't do ANYTHING with the type of motors that are available!!!
Hell, man... many NAR\TRA 'certified' users can't get them to even fly 'up', let alone 'guide them with a payload'.
LOL! What a hoot!!! Can't believe you're actually are using that argument!!!
Much more bang for the buck with an RC Plane, GPS and APRS.

and
And that's *exactly* what's happening behind your back..
We're learning a LOT out here... all over the world we're sharing and gaining information... technologies are RAPIDLY advancing... and small. individual groups are spearheading the way to join SEEMINGLY unrelated technologies to fly higher, faster, and safer.
How old is the Hybrid? Who carried out the original testing? Could they have been kicked out of NAR for investigating this technology? YES!
Check out DARK and their experiments with Epoxy, Composites, hell... even Zinc \ Sulfur is being re-investigated under Scientific Scrutiny with tools that have never existed before ...
Wanna know the importance of degassing some propellants before casting? The SCIENCE and EXPERIMENTS behind it's prudence are HERE! Did you know microscopic air bubbles can increase the burn rate by 300%?!?
You might argue that 'static' testing is not covered under NAR... but after a few static tests, ya just GOTTA try and fly the sucker... ya just GOTTA!

I'd gladly join NAR... many of us would... despite the ass-beatings and bitch-slappings I'd get for voicing my opinion.
And I may only attend a few launches a year... but I would pay my dues (ass-kickings included)... and probably even 'jump through the hoops' to get my HPR cert.
... as long as it is IN WRITING that ANYTHING I do at NAR events is NARs business. Hell, search me... search my vehicle... take apart my rocket if you want...
But by the same token... what I do OUTSIDE of NAR is not ANY of NARs business. Period.
And if I am certified under NAR... I should be able to buy Motors from a certified vendor at my certification level... anytime, anywhere, and fly them anyhow I want... whether at a NAR sanctioned event or not.
And I should be able to make, buy, or trade ANY motor for my own personal use (at the vendors discretion)... in any matter I deem fit. The liability is passed to the vendor... not NAR.
As long as at NAR events I am flying NAR certified motors at or below MY certification level... the rest is known of your business!
Arrrgggghhhh.... ahhhhhhhhhh.... whew! Thanks! That felt good! ;)
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one more time: The NAR does not care what you do outside of NAR model rocket or NAR HPR activities within the NAR framework ....
If you make your own motors outside of the NAR framework fine.. If you fly with these home made motors outside of the NAR framwork fine..
No NAR certification as far as I am aware of is required by the NAR if you are doing the above except for FAA notification if you are building and flying your own homemade motors outside of the NAR framework....
The pledge on the website will be changed as soon as the NAR webmaster person gets around to it Ok?
Mark, yes it is waht they are talking about because thats the end game that they are looking forward to..
You either have to have certs from somebody or you have to have certs by nobody.... If you want to fly at NAR snactioned events or within the NAR framework, re: NFPA, then you have to be user certed and have the motors certed before you IF you don't care to have to purchase a NAR membership to "fly and buy hpr" ... then join the ARSA: no user or motor certs are required for Amateur Rocketry activties..... If you make your own HPR motors....
People making their own motors isn't exactly going on behinds anybodies back that has any knowledge about Sport Rocketry, including the BATFE.....
I am aware of the importance of degassing your propellant prior to casting, in fact I also thought it would probably be a good idea to even cast under vacuum.....
If you are seriously worried about having your ass-kicked or being bitch-slapped from somebody in this hobby for voicing your opinion, then they are no better than the thought police or the Taliban..... If a person has to be worried about their personal safety due to their opinion in this hobby then its no wonder the BATFE is here.....
mark also said:

Unfortunately that is not the law in a number of states...... what makes you think that even such a right exists? It is a privilege to "fly and buy hpr" NOT a right..... Thats why they issue you a license.....Not just anybody is allowed to do this..... If you do not like the current NFPA laws in your state, may I suggest to you what I suggest to Mr. Ferrell: Go to your State Fire Marshall and explain to him why you want him to undo/unadopt the current NFPA 1125/1127 laws in that state, and then you cna him can sit down together and make up your own State HPR laws as you see fit...... It is fully allowed for State to do such under NFPA 1127....see CA as an example......but wait a minute, won't you just be substituting one boss for a new boss? And how do you even know that the new boss will be any moreew inclined to your wishes than the old boss... DO we really want 50 states with 50 different HPR laws? Think about it some....
except in the case where you make your own motors....so go make your own M motors and have fun......all your need is a FAA waiver..... you just can't fly them at NAR sanctioned events because you are now no longer doing NAR rocketry activities you are doing Amateur Rocketry activities..so what is the problem? The NAR could care less that you build and fly AM HPR without their certs...

liability
Tell this to the BATFe okay? I think they may have something they want to say about this.... You realize of course that once the BATFE has model rocketry and high power rocketry under their control, they will be coming for you, you being the AR types that make their own APCP rocket motors... You didn't just think its was the NAR/TRA people they were after did you? You realize that you will have to get a LEUP just like us NAR/TRA types when you make more than 62.5 g of APCP propellant at home? SO go bitch at the BATFE.....
shockie B)

where
'up',
motors
tools
The
after
get
liability
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shockwaveriderz wrote:

to be more precise
the NAR does not care about what you do outside of model and high power rocketry, period
they do care about what you do with commercially produced motors through O impulse at eny time and any place, as that (is some of the conditions that) define[s] model and high power rocketry
they care about what you do at
TRA launches indy launches individual launches, even own your own property
as long as the motors and rockets are within the applicable scope of NFPA rocketry codes

the revised pledge as indicated in the February minutes does not change their position WRT my points above

and if you want to use commercially produced motors through O impulse at indy launches or on your own property?

sure, why should the TRA/NAR take any responsibility? Just because thet actually sit on the Technical Committee on Pyrotechnics, help draft codes and their revisions, and vote on those and those that other members propose?
- iz
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Then just put it in writing... that's all. Just put it in writing.

Great! Can't wait to become a 'card carrying member'. ;)

back
True enough.

casting,
:)
Never said I was worried...
Said I was willin' to pay the price. ;)

I meant with regards to NAR... if I'm certified...

buy
Um... that's not what I said, or what I meant.
I meant with regards to NAR... if I'm certified...
But you know that, don't you.

Well... maybe, maybe not... I'll know for sure when the 'Oath' is changed on the NAR website. ;)

personal
Now I'm REALLY confused!!!
Unless...
The BATFE and NAR and NFPA have an agreement to limit the purchase of HPR motors to someone who has the 'certification' to purchase one, and that they will ONLY be used at NAR sanctioned events?
Are you saying that NAR has entered into an agreement with the BATF that NAR will be responsible for ALL certified motors that a manufacturer makes? Who they sell to, how they are stored, how they are transported, etc.?
If that's true, then it's quite the revelation!!!
(Couln't resist).

Why're you turning this into a BATFE thread? Why are you saying that they're gonna come after me?
Ahhh... this must be the NAR intimidation that I've heard so much about!!!
I'm honoured that you would find me worthy!!!
But I ain't scared...
LOL! I don't currently make APCP rocket motors!
(Don't like AP).

when
What makes you think I don't already have an LEUP?
I mean, I don't... but then... you already *knew* that didn't you. <wink-wink, nudge-nudge>
Does one need an LEUP for hybrids? I didnt' think so...

Ahhh... there it is.
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Mark wrote:

absolutely
slow moving planes, or craft that can be made to hover momentarily to get a GPS lock, combined with APRS for communication with the ground are considerably more suited to simple targeting systems than rockets, which are unable to maintain GPS lock (using the limited equipment aviailable to the general public) due to their speed

POINT!
after all, that is what the law provides

yup
- iz
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<< Bad people can't do ANYTHING with the type of motors that are available!!!

Sure they can, and it wouldn't have to be intentional. They could do something really stupid, like start a major brush fire or fly to close to inhabited buildings/roads, resulting in injury or death. Of course, there are a few ways someone could intentionally use HPR materials in a criminal fashion -- like using a reload to set fire to the garage of a former business associate.
<< And if I am certified under NAR... I should be able to buy Motors from a certified vendor at my certification level... anytime, anywhere, and fly them anyhow I want... whether at a NAR sanctioned event or not. >>
That's how it is now. You don't have to do high power only at NAR/TRA events. You only have to be certified, and obey any applicable regs such as FAA waivers.
<< But by the same token... what I do OUTSIDE of NAR is not ANY of NARs business. >>
As long as it's not modrocs or high power, you're outside the scope of NAR/TRA.
If you're doing modrocs or high power, the NFPA (and various alphabet agencies such as the CPSC) want you to follow NFPA regs, including being certified (high power) and following the appropriate safety code.
<< You might argue that 'static' testing is not covered under NAR... but after a few static tests, ya just GOTTA try and fly the sucker... ya just GOTTA! >>
I don't understand what you're getting at here. Whether you fly 'em or just static test 'em, making your own motors is not a NAR activity and can't be done at a NAR launch. You can still do it on your own, however. In TRA, you can do certain types of motors in the TRA EX program, under their rules. Or you can do amateur stuff on your own, without interference from TRA.
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agencies
(high
OK, let me put it this way.
If I, a US Citizen;
1. Become a NAR Level III Certified Rocketeer, 2. Have my LEUP, 3. Have suitable storage, 4. Obey all NFPA laws 5. Obey all State and Federal regulations 6. Get an FAA waiver,
... and while observing all applicable State and Federal laws, may I then;
A. Purchase an M motor from a Certified vendor? B. Stick it up the butt of my rocket C. Fly the rocket in my backyard
As I understand all current laws and regulations to be written, this wouldn't be a problem, right?
So NAR would have no problem with this either, and that is what the 'OATH' will soon reflect?
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<< If I, a US Citizen; 1. Become a NAR Level III Certified Rocketeer, 2. Have my LEUP, 3. Have suitable storage, 4. Obey all NFPA laws 5. Obey all State and Federal regulations 6. Get an FAA waiver, ... and while observing all applicable State and Federal laws, may I then; A. Purchase an M motor from a Certified vendor? B. Stick it up the butt of my rocket C. Fly the rocket in my backyard As I understand all current laws and regulations to be written, this wouldn't be a problem, right? >>
Correct. BTW, you must have a huge backyard! :)
<< So NAR would have no problem with this either, and that is what the 'OATH' will soon reflect? >>
Correct.
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wouldn't
The square footage is pretty small, but it goes WAY up in the air! ;)

'OATH'
Then count me in!
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If you got a really big back yard...

I think so. There's no NAR requirement to fly HPR only at sanctioned launches. Even your NAR insurance would cover this launch. Not so with TRA...
    Bob Kaplow    NAR # 18L    TRA # "Impeach the TRA BoD"         >>> To reply, remove the TRABoD! <<< Kaplow Klips & Baffle:    http://nira-rocketry.org/LeadingEdge/Phantom4000.pdf www.encompasserve.org/~kaplow_r/ www.nira-rocketry.org www.nar.org
Save Model Rocketry from the HSA! http://www.space-rockets.com/congress.html
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<< There's no NAR requirement to fly HPR only at sanctioned launches. Even your NAR insurance would cover this launch. Not so with TRA... >>
Apparently the current TRA insurance does cover member's launches outside of "sanctioned" club launches. With the usual caveats, of course -- must follow the safety code, obey laws, etc.
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RayDunakin wrote:

It's been a while since I actually had anything to do with TRA, but this must be a recent change: a few years ago there was a requirement to have the launch date registered in advance with the TRA insurance office in order for the coverage to be applicable.
-dave w
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<< It's been a while since I actually had anything to do with TRA, but this must be a recent change: a few years ago there was a requirement to have the launch date registered in advance with the TRA insurance office in order for the coverage to be applicable. >>
Yes, it is a recent change.
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(RayDunakin) writes:

When did this change? They always required that the launch be TRA sanctioned before, meaning that TRA members were left uncovered when flying at NAR launches.
    Bob Kaplow    NAR # 18L    TRA # "Impeach the TRA BoD"         >>> To reply, remove the TRABoD! <<< Kaplow Klips & Baffle:    http://nira-rocketry.org/LeadingEdge/Phantom4000.pdf www.encompasserve.org/~kaplow_r/ www.nira-rocketry.org www.nar.org
Save Model Rocketry from the HSA! http://www.space-rockets.com/congress.html
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'OATH'
No, no... I don't expect to be covered by NAR or ANYONE's insurance at a... let's call it a 'private launch!
I just don't want to be 'kicked out' of a group that I support... because of a hobby I can't resist! ;)
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