Another LEUP Question....

Since there's been so many LEUP threads here lately, thought I'd toss another in the mix. Say I wanted to apply for a LEUP with storage. (probably never actually will) What are the requirements surrounding the storage facility - meaning the building that your magazine is stored in? I'm going to be building a storage building in the backyard in a couple of weeks, and if I could make it "ATF acceptable" with a minimum of added dollars, I might be willing to do that. The building will be 10x16, and the only means of entry would be via an 8x7 garage door. (lockable) The nearest house (besides mine) to it is about 140ft away across the alley. The area right next to it is a cornfield. I also have an attached garage.
Would it make any difference of I got storage in the garage or the shed or vice versa? Would one be "easier" to get than other?
Thx, Joe Michel http://geocities/jm44316

On Mon, 14 Aug 2006 15:53:06 -0500, "J.A. Michel"
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Joe,
One other thing to consider is how close it is to a public road or highway. Don't recall the particulars. If you get the Orange Book from the ATF website, it should answer most of your questions.
Phil

Phil Stein wrote:
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The table of distances does not apply to indoor magazines.
The Orange Book is a monument to the law and regulations as they existed in 2000. A lot has changed since then. Look up the law (18 USC Chapter 40) at:
http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode /
and the regulations (27 CFR Part 555) at:
http://www.access.gpo.gov/nara/cfr/cfr-table-search.html

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Sheds tend to have less problems then attached garage, you won't need a variance. Put a cement floor in it, some inspectors want that to prove its permanent. You will put an indoor mag type 4 indoor in your shed, distance tables like David said won't matter. You will need to first find out if your local fire marshal will let you have an indoor mag in your area however.

Thanks for the comments and links, guys. I'll think about it.
Joe Michel http://geocities.com/jm44316
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Joe,
There was a point in the process, maybe always with me, that I said that I was going to do this _because_ it was regulated. There is a path to legally flying HPR. As long as it is there, you owe it to yourself to take it. You can look at it as just another step in the process to doing HPR - another small acomplishment almost as big as your L1 cert flight. Its still fun to tell people that I have a federal permit to fly the big ones.
<donning flame suit> I know many of you look at it differently, but all they really want to know is that all of the rocket fuel is accounted for and that someone isn't stockpiling enough to do something atrocious. Same as the dynamite and fertilizer. They want to inpect your magazines every year with a couple I's and a few igniters in them? Let 'em. I have nothing to hide. MOST of the regs make sense. <removing flame suit> The classification of APCP is questionable at best and the separate mag for igniters is actually counter to the orange book (but a requirement for the variance), but now that it is done, I've flown an H, an I, and have one more I in the box for next weekend. I can order motors from anyone I choose and I can concentrate on the fun part of flying and getting L2 next year. I guess what I am saying is that they may be JBGTs to some, but in the end, my inspector was very helpful and friendly and even gave me his home phone in case I had questions. The real stress is waiting for the main to open on your first dual deploy after it falls for 40 seconds to the 500 feet where the altimeter is supposed to fire again!
I, like you, asked the questions, fretted over the regs and waited. The process is not hard, though at times frustrating. It helps that you now know the score. It only takes a phone call to the local fire inspector to find out if you can get a permit with local storage - this is almost all the feds need to grant the variance for attached garages. The local fire inspector/marshall will know the local and probably the state regs.
If you can't store locally, you can still probably get a contingency storer lined up. Ask the vendor who comes to the launches. It is in his best interest as well to have another rocket nut burning money at $40 or more per second!!
Just to let you know the funny part of my story. After I got my LEUP, I let the local know that my federal permit came in, as my local "hazardous material storage permit" was contingent upon it. The FIRST thing he asked me was "did you blow anything up yet?" He was extremely helpful and courteous as well.
If you have any questions, ping me at my e-mail and we can arrange a time to <gasp> talk on the phone.
I really need to write up my experience for that one web site, so there is a reference on there for New York State.

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There are two reasons most everyone hates the LEUP requirement. First is cost. It will easily be $150 the first time around. You can buy a nice rocket and an H motor or two for that. Second is storage. A great many fire marshalls won't allow storage in an attached garage. Yes, you can store with someone else, but it adds a lot of monkeying around with giving reloads to the storage person and retrieving them. I think a lesser concern is having to hand over photos and fingerprints to the government. You'll be tops on the list if anything ever happens crime wise with explosives in the local area.
Regulation is killing the hobby since newcomers see how many time and money it can cost to get started, plus long timers are quitting as they want to deal with LEUPs.
Brian Elfert

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I disagree that regulation is killing the hobby. It is not that difficult to either get a regular permit or a contigency permit. I have a permit and am contigency for a few people - I know.
On the other hand I think people that are constantly whining about how hard it is to get a permit and that the feds can come search your house in the middle of the night and that permit holders are prime suspects in many crimes etc. are having a bigger impact than the BATF. They are reducing though not killing the hobby's ranks. Brian - you said you had a permit. Has any of this ever happened to you? I admit that like any large organization, BATF has it's share Bozos but, how does that make them any different than the local tax office, a large bank or credit card company? How about the IRS? Maybe we should all stop working to prevent the IRS from auditing us. After all they could come knock down the door and take all our stuff including our rockets. Sorry about the rant but I'm trying to make a point.
Phil

I am going to add two points to that.
1) They are putting the screws to the vendors for selling to non-licensed folks, so the well is going to go dry sooner or later. Your choice is permit or fly MR. 2) How do you think an insurance claim would go if someone was hurt by your rocket and an illegally gotten motor?
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On Tue, 15 Aug 2006 20:04:02 -0400, "Thomas Koszuta"
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I can answer that. There was recently an incident where someone's motor hit a car. The flyer tried to put in a claim on their home owner's insurance. The insurance company refused to pay for two reasons. First it was their contention that the flyer didn't do anything neglegent. Second the owner of the car was there with the knowledge that this could happen and by being there accepted the risk. It was a legally gotten certified motor. From an insurance perspective, I think the results would be similar. The car was repaired through the owners comprehensive insurance.
The flyer might have other problems if the certain gubment agencies found out.
Phil

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Hi Phil,
It was not the same company for both guys was it ?
If they owner of the car had no comprehensive, he would have to hold the flyer responsible. the waiver does not mean much if a real situation happened. The flyer would be responsible. His home owners would have to pay. If he refused to do comprehensive and sued the flyer, the home owners would have to pay up. Talk to a real old fashioned Certified Property & Casualty Underwriter (CPCU) about it.
That all said, what happened was really the easy way out to take if someone does have the option to do the comprehensive, so lets all keep that in mind.

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No
I'm sure he could be held responsible. I doubt that his Home Owners would HAVE to pay. If he were pushed, I suppose he would have to pay and the home oners would then be his problem.
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Yes it was. BTW - the flyer payed the deductable on the comprehensive claim.
Phil

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I don't think there is any problem with a vendor selling rocket flights as a service. The only issue might be liability for the vendor if something happens.
Brian Elfert

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I've never had any problem with the ATF doing any any sort of invasive inspections or visiting often.
In fact, there is supposed to be a compliance inspection between every renewal and I haven't seen an agent since my last renewal. An agent did show up to check the storage for my friend's renewal, but he just looked at the magazine, took a picture and a GPS reading and left. He didn't check logs or anything.
I am starting my renewal process so I doubt I will get a compliance inspection before my renewal comes up.
Brian Elfert

Thomas Koszuta <sliderule> wrote:
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Let me look at this a different way:
They take a substance in a form that is NOT explosive, and deem it an explosive so they can regulate it. The practical effects of that that directly impact us are:
- Because it is an exploseive, they require expensive storage for that material.
- To obtain that storage, they require that we deal with local authorities who are commonly alarmed by the "E________" word.
= Many of the localities (states) don't have a concept of "low" explosive so we have to follow the rule for HIGH explosives (huge back yard).
= If your local AHJ isn't alarmed by the "E" word, our favorite agency will call them up and help them become alarmed (you can read the stories of that right here on RMR).
- Some of us live in places that won't allow the E* word. The recent ruling has stated that it is 'safe' for me to store a pound of "little" motors (where each is less than 0.14lb), but it's not 'safe' for me to store one 0.15lb motor.
- They require us to surrender our Fourth Amendment rights so they can search our "storage" any time they want.
So, you have nothing to hide? What about those MISSILES stored in your basement / garage / living room?
(I guess I'll give that a 1/2 :-)
While focusing on these details, don't lose site of the Big Picture: Regulate ROCKETS.
Glen Overby

I agree with what you say.
...And just because the law is wrong in our opinion does not mean we do not have to follow it.
...And I say we all get legal to show them that they cannot stop us.
...And I have nothing to hide because I have already shown them what I have.
Maybe my experience with the LEUP was _TOO_ good - I just don't have anything worse than they made me get a second mag.
Hopefully this will all be irrelevant in the near future.

Thomas Koszuta wrote:
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Thats exactly what they want: Names, Addresses, Fingerprints and a Right To Search each and every one of us. Then they can stop us, by changing the rules again and rounding us up.
I wish you would have read the email message you replied to. In it, I explained _why_ this is not feasable for many of us. I'll repeat it here:
---------- - To obtain that storage, they require that we deal with local authorities who are commonly alarmed by the "E________" word.
= Many of the localities (states) don't have a concept of "low" explosive so we have to follow the rule for HIGH explosives (huge back yard).
= If your local AHJ isn't alarmed by the "E" word, our favorite agency will call them up and help them become alarmed (you can read the stories of that right here on RMR).
- Some of us live in places that won't allow the E* word. The recent ruling has stated that it is 'safe' for me to store a pound of "little" motors (where each is less than 0.14lb), but it's not 'safe' for me to store one 0.15lb motor. ----------
Glen Overby

On Wed, 16 Aug 2006 13:44:49 -0500, Glen Overby
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Sure that isn't the boogey man? I think you might be on the list - just below Osama.
Phil

This season, I have not been able to go out and fly at all. I've been in the process of building a new house - which has taken all my free time. (and money too!) I was just asking with an eye to the future. My shed will be permanent, on a cement foundation, and I don't think the local fire guys would be too tough to convince, so it's possible.
Just wondering of I needed to do anything special to the shed - more than what I had already planned. Looks like I don't. Everyone has brought up some good points, and I thank you for the discussion.
Up till now, I've mooched off other people's LEUP's in my club, (you know who you are!) or used a flight service that our motor vendor provided. Most of the time, that's OK....BUT. There's been times that our vendors or other folks could not make it to the launch, and left me high & dry. The biggest advantage I could see in getting a LEUP would be the elimination of reliance on others for motors and stuff. Like I said, I'll have to think about it.....
thx, Joe Michel
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Joe,
If the local fire department is volunteer a little donation can go a long way. I read an article in one of the rocketry magazines a year or two ago that described a fellow building a shed for his magazine and I remember his ATF agent requiring him to clear all underbrush and trees away from the shed and he also had to install a minimum of two locks on the door.
Anybody else remember reading this article and any more of the particulars of it. Of course both of the requirements mentioned were from this particular fellows agent and we all know that the ATF is consistently inconsistent about what they want.
Good Luck,
Andrew
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