Effects of getting a LEUP...

It's me again. I guess I should have used a spell checker for the 1st post. Oh well.
A clarification to the original question. I am applying for just the LEUP. No storage addendum. This might affect the answer about making and testing motors. I live in a community that has outlawed fire works of any kind including sparklers. So having homemade motors in my garage might be a problem and since getting permission from the local fire department in order to get a storage addendum to my LEUP is pretty much out of the question where I live. So I will be just getting the LEUP with out storage. What a mess to live in good old CA.
KT

There is no such thing as a LEUP without storage. The BATFE will require you to have 'contingency' storage - someplace to go with any motor(s) you may have left over after a launch or otherwise that remain in your possession. You will need to arrange with *someone*, either another LEUP holder or perhap the vendor you use to store for you.

Ok,
the question is still are they going to come and inspect initially or on a periodic basis?
KT

They generally only do inspections of the storage. I am doing storage for myself and two others. The last guy who had to renew his LEUP, the ATF agent came to my house to check out the storage. They never visited his house as they have no reason to.
The ATF is supposed to do at least one "suprise" compliance inspection during each three year license period, but I haven't seen an agent since my last renewal. In my case, I'm usually not home during the hours when the ATF would come by, so they show up and then have to call to schedule the compliance inspection.
This reminds that my LEUP expires this fall and I better start the renewal process.
Brian Elfert

As a documented user of low explosives, your blip on their radar will be larger than the rest of the community. By signing their papers, you give them permission to investigate you and your premises if they have a reason. The "reason" they come up with can be totally arbitrary and completely up to them. (Remember, they think rocket motor propellant explodes!)
But, probably nuthin' bad will happen...
steve

If you have a LEUP, you are subject to periodic inspections. I had one when I initially got my LEUP, one when I renewed it and one right after 9/11. My stuff is in an attached garage. They did not go looking around in the house. Home made propellant does not require a LEUP so I wouldn't be concerned about it but I also wouldn't leave it out in front of their face either. That's a hefty test stand for a D. I doubt if any of the inspectors I had would know what it was but there again, I wouldn't stick it in his face. A plastic tapr will keep it clean, dry & out of site.
Phil

If you local govt will not let you have a permit, neither will ATF.
Phil

He isn't planning to have his own storage so the ATF will likely never even visit his location.
In my experience, the ATf agent never goes beyond looking at the magazine and where the magazine will be. They don't go into your house and they don't poke around in your garage either. Their main concerns are that no gasoline, propane, paint, or other flammables are near the magazine.
Brian Elfert

Who has a garage with no gasoline in it? Got only electric cars out where you live?

The ATF just wants to be sure you don't have a gas can on the same shelf as the magazine or something like that. Gas cans on the other side of the garage are okay. They are not concerned about where cars park.
It makes no sense as the car is full of gasoline that is more explosive than any APCP motor.
Brian Elfert

Really? What part of the orange book describes these requirements?

Why are you telling me this -
And you pretty much repeat what I said? Am I missing something. We are both answering the question he asked.
As seemingly relevent as it is, I've never been asked to move flamables away from my magazine.
Phil

You are confusing "The ATF" with the individulal inspectors that came to visit. Gasoline has never been an issue with the individual inspectors that visited me. It would not surprise me if a different one came out the next time and did ask about it.
Phil

I was told that since I had flammables (a partial gallon each of acetone and mineral spirits and some spray paint) and a gas hot water heater in my garage, I would be required to install a power ventilation system and move the flammables to another area of the garage. I said I'd never seen that in the requirements and was told that putting in a vent would be easy compared to getting a permit if I challenged her recommendation.
So I installed a power ventilation system.
Didn't much matter though, the Houston Fire Marshall refused to allow it. Said I needed a Houston Explosives Permit. Houston doesn't (didn't?) differentiate between high and low explosives. I had to have a dynamite rated storage facility 75' away from any occupied building. He went on to tell me that no one would ever come looking for my rocket motors and told me to just "do what ever you want to do illegally. Leave us the hell alone and we won't bother you!" Direct quote.
Never did get my permit. But I did move my flammables and install power ventilation.
Dave

Please insist that the ATF provide you with the proper renewal form as required by 27 CFR 555.46
This form must exist as it is currently under review by the OMB in accordance with the Paperwork Reduction Act.

The ATF does not have the authority to snoop around your house. Check out the law at:
You want Title 18, Chapter 40
And the regulations at:
Title 27 part 555.
The regulations derive their authority from the law.
The law (18 USC 843(f) states:
The Attorney General may enter during business hours the premises (including places of storage) of any licensee or holder of a user permit, for the purpose of inspecting or examining (1) any records or documents required to be kept by such licensee or permittee, under the provisions of this chapter or regulations issued hereunder, and (2) any explosive materials kept or stored by such licensee or permittee at such premises. ...
The Secretary [1] may inspect the places of storage for explosive materials of an applicant for a limited permit or, at the time of renewal of such permit, a holder of a limited permit, only as provided in subsection (b)(4).
The regulations implementing the law state:
555.24 Right of entry and examination.
(a) Any ATF officer may enter during business hours the premises, including places of storage, of any licensee or holder of a user permit for the purpose of inspecting or examining any records or documents required to be kept under this part, and any facilities in which explosive materials are kept or stored.
So it would appear that the ATF only has authority for warrantless searches of your records and storage. If they want more, they will need either your permission or a search warrant.
I first applied for a permit (by the way, there is no longer any such thing as a LEUP) in 1997 during the first big ATF 62.5 gram scare. Two agents came and interviewed me. They couldn't inspect my storage because I didn't have any. At that time you could have a permit without storage. It wasn't until after the Safe Explosives Act that the ATF deleted the language in the regulations that provided that option. I never could find anything in the SEA that justified that action.
After that I did not see another ATF agent until after 9/11. I received a phone call around renewal time and that was it. I next saw an agent at renewal time in 2004. The agent looked at my records and hand copied some information from them. She also looked at my spiffy new magazine. (More details of my renewal at )
I have not seen or heard from the ATF since then.
The questionnaire the agent used during that interview still has not been approved by the OMB. Federal regulations prohibit any federal agency from using an unapproved information collection and also prohibit them from taking adverse action against anyone who refuses to participate in an unapproved collection. Keep that in mind if they trot it out for you.
Contrary to the behavior of the ATF in Washington, most field agents know that APCP is not a threat and only want to get the process completed so they can get back to doing something useful.
snipped-for-privacy@pacbell.net wrote:

I am just going by what the agents have said when they come to my garage. I don't have the orange book memorized.
Brian Elfert

Is there a different renewal form than the initial application form? I don't remember from my last renewal three years ago.
Brian Elfert

Don't you love the consistency?
Phil