this reposted from ROL ... see the comment about China
- iz
Ismaeel Abdur-Rasheed >>Estes has not supported any measures we have undertaken to seek relief from crippling anti-rocketry legislation. They have clarified their position by their inaction that their commitment is exclusively to their own product line
SNIP<
I'm amazed that no one has had a similar motor line made el cheapo in China. The right factory could do a good job of it. Or did they and I did not notice? E$tes motors are still made in the USA, correct? The Chinese military pyro items that we have handled in the past were quite good and we all know that there is not much to them thar blackpowder motors.
Because the ones who have have been refused certs by NAR who is clearly in bed with AeroTech and Estes. NFPA committee actions are the visible evidence of it but the behind the scenes stuff is harder to document and prove because often it happens after NAR reps insisting to be called on the phone.
I for example was refunded $1000 by NAR for S&T fees after they refused to certify motors under any of three different sets of paperwork.
And only recently BunDICK pulled a "dog ate my homework" excuse, so I reemailed the papers for one set to him with hard proof of his illegal board votes (and fraud) claiming falsely that the motors are DOT class
1.1.
That is what C4 is.
Jerry
To say NAR is over the line doesn't do it justice. They lost sight of the line a decade ago and never looked back.
This has been looked into several times. The quality is very low at the price point that would be marketable in the US. I don't believe it would be worthwhile for a US company to cover the importing costs and liability issues, plus the impact on their reputation.
I realize from your ROL postings that you must be bored without a current "cause" and have started going after Estes as the new enemy. Hard to understand your reasoning (why aren't I suprised? ;)
The public record speaks for itself. Why not just go build that 4" Patriot, do something constructive with your family, enjoy the hobby? Or is it more rewarding to work on your David and Goliath complex by trying to put Estes out of business for not agreeing with your ARSA FUD?
He does not speak for all ARSA members and in fact does not "speak for ARSA" either. He occasionally reposts ARSA statements (whether or not they make sense)
Do you or do you not condone putting Estes out of businesses for exercising it's legal right not to agree with ARSA's naive position?
Now let's see how selective you are with your waffling on "freedom of speech" today. ;) Or is it time to reach for the crutch of "truth, justice, and the American way" instead of answering the question?
Freedom of speech includes freedom of requesting customers not buy from Estes for not supporting the flyrockets.com effort. Plenty of vendors not on the internet daily missed the boat entirely as well. Not just estes. Do we need to attack them too?
As for you John you seem to talk about freedom of speech EXECEPT from those you irrationally disagree with.
I condone that consumers make free and informed choices
the conduct of a company is pertinent to a consumers determination of whether or not he/she chooses to so business with that company
the availability of competing alternatives, the conduct of those companies, and the comparative value in terms of quality are also pertinent
as someone has suggested, regardless of ones position in the matter, if all the HP flyers in the world were to choose against buying Estes, type financial impact to that company would be neglible. Estes is not going to be 'put out of business' by organized flyers. But a statement can be made.
this is the opportunity for us to support our own vendors, and act consciously in the matter of choice
and who knows the impact that a negative image (based on fact) may have on decision makers
Jerry Irv> Freedom of speech includes freedom of requesting customers not buy from
Estes is a large organization, one whose support may have made a difference [no, trolls - not to get S.724 passed against the unfair tactics of DOJ/BATFE, but perhaps we would have had another sponsor in the Senate]. Their "APCP classification does not affect our business model, and the impact on other forms rocketry and related activities is not our concern" was, IMO, shortsighted.
My invitation was that consumers "consider" the provided list of manufacturers, whose products were substantively better, who share our stake in regulatory reform, and who have in many cases supported that reform.
I do not feel that any "rockets by rocketeers" vendors should suffer, all rocketeers have suffered far too much.
Point. I liked that list. It had several companies whose products I like alot. Repost it.
I just think a boycott is a waste of time. I also disagree with you about Estes. I say ATF selected them for "safety" and they are acting rationally for a company in such a position with a large scale product and distribution channel to protect. They financially support NAR (irrationally) and NAR supports or claims to support increased access. Their tactics are wacky and ineffective but they did file the lawsuit which has valid points.
They could have accomplished 10x the benefit by simply following existing laws and about 4 strokes of the pen with NFPA and the safety codes.
Suffered from what exactly? The changes in the SEA are minor and impact a very small percentage of consumer rocketry. And there are alternatives and work-arounds for the those that area affected. The misinformation spread by ARSA has had more negative impact than the BATFE. When average people say "I thought model rockets were banned now", do you think that was due to an announcement from the Federal government or some Lone Ranger's unchecked self-proclamations?
It appears that you and the Wickmanites might be on the next phase of your guilt trip, looking for others to point the finger at. Blame Estes! For what? Having the sense not to support something that was doomed from the start? For not wanting to align themselves with fringe wackos?
From any sane person's point of view, Estes did the logical thing by staying independent of all this. They also did nothing illegal or harmful, which would be justification for a 'real' boycott. I find it appauling and highly destructive to the hobby to have people like you pretending to be experts and pushing people's buttons to serve your megalomania & paranoia.
most any vendor I have heard from has depressed sales, and several have closed their doors. The buying behavior of hobbyists changed for several reasons, one of which is fear, uncertainty and doubt
despite the accusations from your camp, the source of that FUD is not ARSA, but the BATFE itself. You need only to see the DOJs letter to the SJC to realize this. Or do you also doubt the eye witnesses of BATFE visits where agents insisted that all APCP motors, regardless of size, must be placed in acceptable storage within 24 hours or be confiscated? Or the eyewitnesses of BATFE visits to hobby stores where agents requested that they keep records of avionics sales for the BATFE?
these events were not ARSA fabrication. They occurred.
I assert that the ARSA warning that the BATFE would visit launch sites when the SEA went into effect, and the widespread coverage it received, sufficiently forarmed rocketeers that the BATFE felt the planned visits now lacked the element of surprise and so were aborted. Can you disprove that?
I know you would be happy to accept the 0.9 lb "model rocket motor" used in "recreational model rockets" because it allows you to maintain your sphere of influence. You fail to recognize that those may be cardboard single use motors in cardboard rockets, and kiss metal RMS and fiberglass/carbon fiber goodbye. Do you trust the BATFE to find a more generous interpretation?
you neither appear to see, nor care, about rocketeers desire to pursue higher sophistication in materials, construction and power beyond that. Nor do you appear to care about the erosion of freedom, and the increased domination by a power- and budget-hungry government agency. Nor do you appear to care about the impact of the loss of levels of rocketry which represent a strategic asset to our country, in knowledge and practice.
ARSA and its supporters are not content to settle for a breadcrumb, when there is no objective case for being denied the loaf, and a bakery for that matter. There is only a mock-case of hysterics created by blatant lies, supported by an climate of resignation that "that is how washington works".
thank you, but no thank you
I have no intention of resigning myself to your 'acceptable' reality
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