LEUP for APCP motors.. What about KNO3 motors including sugar?

The Orange book has generally been interpreted such that motors you make yourself are exempt from regulation.

The big stink about APCP motors is for commercially purchased motors.

Brian Elfert

Well that makes no sence at all!!! I guess the ATF are clueless. I can't buy them but I can make them all I want.

Thanks, KT

Read what the ATF has to say:

"a license or permit is not required to manufacture explosive materials (including propellant, igniters, etc.) for one?s own use. A person manufacturing fo r his/her own use is, however, required to store non-exempt explosive materials in an approved storage magazine. Additionally, a permit is required if a person wishes to transport non-exempt explosive materials"

So if your city/town/county doesn't allow a Type 4 Magazine you're still out of luck. And if you plan to mix on one location and fly in another, you need a LEUP.

You're much more likely to get stopped for speeding than to get caught transporting motors you made.

At least you can still get the raw materials without an LEUP for now.

Brian Elfert

(Snip for Brevity's sake)

So don't tell' em! ;-)

So much for Rocketry being a self-regulating hobby. Any safety code violations we shouldn't mention?

And you wonder why the Government doesn't trust us?

Perhaps. But you'll probably make the ATF's website if they do catch you ;-)

I always thought Rocketry was a self-regulating hobby. I guess I was wrong.

I never told anyone they should actually do this. I just said the chances of getting caught are about nil. (Unless reported of course.)

Brian Elfert

Actually I wonder why the government doesn't trust anyone, including themselves.

Ted Novak TRA#5512 IEAS#75

They don't trust us? WE don't trust THEM.

...government of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the earth.

Too late Abe :-(

Is this codified regulation, or a Q&A?

I thought the DOT was in charge of transportation. Is the BATFE trying to regulate outside their domain?

Ever hear of the 5th amendment?

That's why the gubment can't trust anyone. Its also one of the top ten of their favorite ones to ignore.

You may also want to investigate the meaning of ;-)

Phil

"Trust no one." Molder

I think you're correct. Recently, I heard about a case where an ATF agent gave someone a hard time for not having their EX motors in a magazine while they were at a launch. The person told them that - ATF was not at the launch.

Then Alex says "I always thought Rocketry was a self-regulating hobby. I guess I was wrong."

Phil

18 USC 842 (a) It shall be unlawful for any person? (3) other than a licensee or permittee knowingly? (A) to transport, ship, cause to be transported, or receive any explosive materials; or 18 USC 844 (a) Any person who? (1) violates any of subsections (a) through (i) or (l) through (o) of section 842 shall be fined under this title, imprisoned for not more than 10 years, or both;

The exemption lists black powder, APCP, and other similar low explosives.

The explosives list is not all inclusive. Just because it isn't listed there doesn't mean it isn't an explosive subject to regulation by the ATF.

One of the claims by the ATF in their justification for the new exemption is that regulation of the bigger motors would not create an undue burden on rocketeers. Be sure to notify the NAR/TRA of the specifics of why you can't get a permit as this could be useful to the lawsuit.

Well I guess I will design and make some short 38mm motors having one grain of 62 grams. I will make those short motors and short grains and drive them to my launch site. Then I will disassemble those motors and stick the grains into my longer 38 mm motors... I made the grains for my short motors. Transported them as short motors. Then I manufactured a long motor on site and launched it.

What do you think??? Sound legal or not?

KT

Well if it is not legal then there's on field propellant processing.

IIRC some folks from the RRS did just that when they sent a boosted dart up to 50 (stature) miles at Black Rock. Something like 1996 or so.

Ted Novak TRA#5512 IEAS#75

Where in our government's mandate is maintain trust in the citizenry? I do believe you have it backwards, as the government should strive to maintain the trust OF it's citizenry.