Newbie Question : Motor Availability

I've read a number of things lately but still a bit confused. Do I now need a LEUP if I want to buy L1 reloads at a launch and bring them home ?
Does this also apply to SU motors ? I guess I need this explained to me in laymans terms. Thanks for the understanding .
- Bill
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<< I've read a number of things lately but still a bit confused.>>
There are a couple of different issues involved. First off, the court has determined that ATF hasn't legally eliminated the so-called "easy access" exemption on reloads/motors containing grains weighing no more than 62.5g. Then the court also declared that the exemption for Propellent Actuated Devices still applies to all "fully assembled rocket motors".
<< Do I now need a LEUP if I want to buy L1 reloads at a launch and bring them home?>>
Probably not, since most (maybe all) L1 reloads have grains weighing less than 62.5g ("easy access"), which the court has ruled is still exempt.
<<Does this also apply to SU motors ? >>
All single use motors are exempt as PADs. All fully assembled reloadable motors are also exempt.
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Thanks for the reply. Im not sure I understand. I just checked the Aerotech site and it looks to me that any H or I "Easy Access" reload has more than 62.5 grams of propellant including the reload I just got my L1 cert on, the H180. However I did see there are just a few F's and G's listed as L1 that have less than 62.5 but no H's or I's. WHat am I missing ? I guess I will need a LEUP to buy any of the "good" L1 motors eh ?
Thanks

Then
them
than
motors
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What you are missing is that EACH individual fuel grain in the motor is less tahn 62.5 grams. It is NOT the assembled weight but the weight of EACH fuel slug.
Les.
> > << I've read a number of things lately but still a bit confused.>> > > > > There are a couple of different issues involved. First off, the court has > > determined that ATF hasn't legally eliminated the so-called "easy access" > > exemption on reloads/motors containing grains weighing no more than 62.5g. > Then > > the court also declared that the exemption for Propellent Actuated Devices > > still applies to all "fully assembled rocket motors". > > > > << Do I now need a LEUP if I want to buy L1 reloads at a launch and bring > them > > home?>> > > > > Probably not, since most (maybe all) L1 reloads have grains weighing less > than > > 62.5g ("easy access"), which the court has ruled is still exempt. > > > > <<Does this also apply to SU motors ? >> > > > > All single use motors are exempt as PADs. All fully assembled reloadable > motors > > are also exempt. > > > > > > > >
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You guys are all "just making shit up".
ATF exempts ALL propellant actuated devices (including reloads and ejections and igniters) per 27 CFR 555.141-a-8.
www.v-serv.com/usr/ATFexempt.htm
The JUDGES ORDER affirms it certainly applies to all sport rocket motors (at minimum) (in addition).
Reloads are sport rocket motor components.
http://www.v-serv.com/atf/62.pdf
"In addition, the Court finds that the ATF's pronouncement that sport rocket motors are not PADs is invalid because it was made without compliance with the notice-and-comment rulemaking procedures of the OCCA and the APA."
Pardon me for citing COURT ORDERS and LAWS.
Now attack me for that.
Jerry

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The only cartridges for nail guns that I found look very much like regular 22 caliber ammunition except that they don't have a bullet. Perhaps they are sliding through the exemption for small arms ammunition and components.
RayDunakin wrote: > Jerry wrote: > << ATF exempts ALL propellant actuated devices (including reloads and ejections > and igniters) per 27 CFR 555.141-a-8. > www.v-serv.com/usr/ATFexempt.htm >> > > Jerry, I'm not disagreeing with you, but can you please show me specifically > where the regs state that propellent loads and/or igniters are exempt? I > believe the loads are exempt but the only evidence I have to support that is > the fact that loads ("cartridges") for other PADs/PAITs are exempt. It would > help to see the actual regs that support this. > > > > >
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22
it must be something else, nail gun cartridges are not able to be used in arms, and are sold in states that control small arms ammo.
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<< Im not sure I understand. I just checked the Aerotech site and it looks to me that any H or I "Easy Access" reload has more than 62.5 grams of propellant including the reload I just got my L1 cert on, the H180. However I did see there are just a few F's and G's listed as L1 that have less than 62.5 but no H's or I's. WHat am I missing ? >>
What you're missing is that the weight PER GRAIN, not total weight. Currently, if each grain weighs no more than 62.5g, the motor is exempt regardless of the total propellent weight. That means that virtually all 29mm and 38mm reloads are exempt at this time.
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AHHHHHHHHHH ! Thank You Thank You. Ok how do you determine whether each grain is 62.5gms or less in any given reload ?? AND, you say they are exempt "at this time" . Is this going to change soon ?
Thanks again !

looks to

propellant
see
no
Currently,
the
reloads
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Bill Botook wrote:

AeroTech, anything 38mm and smaller is under the limit. Cesaroni, the standard Pro38 grains are.
With hybrids, it doesn't matter, except for the AeroTech EFX loads, which use slugs of APCP. All other loads either use plastic or cardboard, regardless of manufacturer.
The ATF would like you to believe it's not valid now, but the judge says otherwise. They also claim they're going to do an NPRM by December to change it. I'll believe they can move that fast, and follow all the rules, when I see it.
-Kevin
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Agreed. We're one year past the last NPRM date, with still no word regarding the responses they got a year ago. We did exactly as Bunny promised we'd do: we burried them in their own red tape. And will do so again if they propose any changes to our hobby. They'll also need to do a lot better next time. The last NPRM contained serious legal flaws that will block any changes they try to implement as a result.
And it's been 6 months since Sen Enzi sent them a letter requesting a response regarding their overregulation of our hobby. They've blown off a US Senator for half a year. And blown up a van in the process.
    Bob Kaplow    NAR # 18L    TRA # "Impeach the TRA BoD"         >>> To reply, remove the TRABoD! <<< Kaplow Klips & Baffle:    http://nira-rocketry.org/LeadingEdge/Phantom4000.pdf www.encompasserve.org/~kaplow_r/ www.nira-rocketry.org www.nar.org
Save Model Rocketry from the HSA! http://www.space-rockets.com/congress.html
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Are you saying all these are exempt ? Even the J's ? (as L3 of course) ...
Pro38 62.5 gram Classic Reloads 133G69-12A 244H153-13A 384I205-15A 512I285-15A 648J285-15A 765J330-16A
I guess the formulation isnt any different so these are OK too ?...
Pro38 Smoky Sam Reloads
129G79SS-13A 247H143SS-13A 364I212SS-14A 486I287SS-15A 601I350SS-16A 700J400SS-16A

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<< Are you saying all these are exempt ? Even the J's? (as L3 of course) ... Pro38 62.5 gram Classic Reloads 133G69-12A 244H153-13A 384I205-15A 512I285-15A 648J285-15A 765J330-16A >>
Yes, those are all exempt. But a J is a Level 2 motor, not Level 3. Level 3 is M, N, and O.
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Also the 634I540-16A.. just certified.

...
3 is

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<< Ok how do you determine whether each grain is 62.5gms or less in any given reload ??>>
Well, I'm unaware of any current 29mm or 38mm reloads that have larger grains, so anything in that size range should be OK. In any case, you can get specific info from the dealer. Keep in mind though that some dealers are requiring LEUPs for online purchases even for "easy access" motors, out of an excess of caution.
<<AND, you say they are exempt "at this time". Is this going to change soon ?

Well, the ATF initiated a "Notice of Proposed Rule Making" last year in an attempt to (among other things) legally institute a 62.5g total propellent weight limit. However, there are some major flaws in the proposal and it has been strongly opposed not only by the rocketry community but also by others in the explosives and pyrotechnics industries. So no one really knows for sure if or when that proposal will become law.
Even if and when it does, it's possible that we could appeal to the court to have reloads covered by the PAD exemption, which in fact they should be. Other types of propellent actuated devices and tools have reloads that are exempt.
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Pro38 Smoky Sams are about 80 grams each.

given
grains,
specific
LEUPs
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<< Pro38 Smoky Sams are about 80 grams each. >>
Right, I forgot about the Smoky Sams.
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In the past the answer for 29mm and 38mm reloads has been no. The recent court decision has left this clouded. But it has removed the LEUP requirement from **ALL** SU motors, at least for the moment. Not that the JBGTs will actually follow the law or the court decision any way.
    Bob Kaplow    NAR # 18L    TRA # "Impeach the TRA BoD"         >>> To reply, remove the TRABoD! <<< Kaplow Klips & Baffle:    http://nira-rocketry.org/LeadingEdge/Phantom4000.pdf www.encompasserve.org/~kaplow_r/ www.nira-rocketry.org www.nar.org
Save Model Rocketry from the HSA! http://www.space-rockets.com/congress.html
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I wrote:

Jerry replied:
<< I did. Your ignorance of legal language and how it is APPLIED is NOT my fault. >>
I have seen nothing in the regs you've quoted which could even remotely be interpreted as saying that propellent loads or igniters are exempt -- and believe me, I _want_ them to be exempt.
<< From 27 CFR 55.11, "Propellant Actuated Device. Any tool or special mechanized device or gas generator system which is actuated by a propellant or which releases and directs work through a propellant charge." >>
Once again you have quoted the PAD definition, but it makes no mention of individual components, reloads, or igniters.
<< This definition is what is referred to in 27 CFR 55.141(a)(8) 55.141 exemptions (a) (8) Gasoline, fertilizers, propellant actuated devices, or propellant actuated industrial tools manufactured, imported, or distributed for their intended purposes. >>
The PAD exemption quoted here also makes no mention of reloads or ignitors.
<< From this, it is commonly understood that as long as the PAD are manufactured, imported, or distributed for their intended purpose, they are exempt from treatment as explosives per 27 CFR and other laws. There is no size or volume limitation on what is exempted. >>
Of course. But where does it mention igniters or reloads? It doesn't address those items at all in the materials you've quoted here.
<< It does get tiresome to cut and paste the same answwer over and over...>>
Then stop cutting and pasting the same non-answer and address my question with facts instead of wishful thinking and obfuscation. Just show me any language in the regs which specifically exempts igniters and reloads (or cartridges).
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snipped-for-privacy@aol.com (RayDunakin) wrote:

Or air bags, or SU motors. Or any of the other items exempt.
That is because it describes the CHARACTERISTICS of exempt items.
That is BETTER than listing them one by one.
Here:
system which is actuated by a propellant or which releases and directs work through a propellant charge
Does a RL motor do that? Does a SU motor do that? Does an igniter do that? Does an ejection charge do that? Does a sheer pin break do that?
Yes.
Jerry
--
Jerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA
Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to: snipped-for-privacy@gte.net>
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