Newbie Question : Motor Availability

Probably not, since most (maybe all) L1 reloads have grains weighing less than

62.5g ("easy access"), which the court has ruled is still exempt.

All single use motors are exempt as PADs. All fully assembled reloadable motors are also exempt.

Thanks for the reply. Im not sure I understand. I just checked the Aerotech site and it looks to me that any H or I "Easy Access" reload has more than

62.5 grams of propellant including the reload I just got my L1 cert on, the H180. However I did see there are just a few F's and G's listed as L1 that have less than 62.5 but no H's or I's. WHat am I missing ? I guess I will need a LEUP to buy any of the "good" L1 motors eh ?

Thanks

What you are missing is that EACH individual fuel grain in the motor is less tahn 62.5 grams. It is NOT the assembled weight but the weight of EACH fuel slug.

Les.

62.5g. > Then > > the court also declared that the exemption for Propellent Actuated Devices > > still applies to all "fully assembled rocket motors". > >

What you're missing is that the weight PER GRAIN, not total weight. Currently, if each grain weighs no more than 62.5g, the motor is exempt regardless of the total propellent weight. That means that virtually all 29mm and 38mm reloads are exempt at this time.

AHHHHHHHHHH ! Thank You Thank You. Ok how do you determine whether each grain is 62.5gms or less in any given reload ?? AND, you say they are exempt "at this time" . Is this going to change soon ?

Thanks again !

AeroTech, anything 38mm and smaller is under the limit. Cesaroni, the standard Pro38 grains are.

With hybrids, it doesn't matter, except for the AeroTech EFX loads, which use slugs of APCP. All other loads either use plastic or cardboard, regardless of manufacturer.

The ATF would like you to believe it's not valid now, but the judge says otherwise. They also claim they're going to do an NPRM by December to change it. I'll believe they can move that fast, and follow all the rules, when I see it.

-Kevin

Well, I'm unaware of any current 29mm or 38mm reloads that have larger grains, so anything in that size range should be OK. In any case, you can get specific info from the dealer. Keep in mind though that some dealers are requiring LEUPs for online purchases even for "easy access" motors, out of an excess of caution.

Well, the ATF initiated a "Notice of Proposed Rule Making" last year in an attempt to (among other things) legally institute a 62.5g total propellent weight limit. However, there are some major flaws in the proposal and it has been strongly opposed not only by the rocketry community but also by others in the explosives and pyrotechnics industries. So no one really knows for sure if or when that proposal will become law.

Even if and when it does, it's possible that we could appeal to the court to have reloads covered by the PAD exemption, which in fact they should be. Other types of propellent actuated devices and tools have reloads that are exempt.

In the past the answer for 29mm and 38mm reloads has been no. The recent court decision has left this clouded. But it has removed the LEUP requirement from **ALL** SU motors, at least for the moment. Not that the JBGTs will actually follow the law or the court decision any way.

Bob Kaplow NAR # 18L TRA # "Impeach the TRA BoD" >>> To reply, remove the TRABoD!

Agreed. We're one year past the last NPRM date, with still no word regarding the responses they got a year ago. We did exactly as Bunny promised we'd do: we burried them in their own red tape. And will do so again if they propose any changes to our hobby. They'll also need to do a lot better next time. The last NPRM contained serious legal flaws that will block any changes they try to implement as a result.

And it's been 6 months since Sen Enzi sent them a letter requesting a response regarding their overregulation of our hobby. They've blown off a US Senator for half a year. And blown up a van in the process.

Bob Kaplow NAR # 18L TRA # "Impeach the TRA BoD" >>> To reply, remove the TRABoD!

Are you saying all these are exempt ? Even the J's ? (as L3 of course) ...

Pro38 62.5 gram Classic Reloads

133G69-12A 244H153-13A 384I205-15A 512I285-15A 648J285-15A 765J330-16A

I guess the formulation isnt any different so these are OK too ?...

Pro38 Smoky Sam Reloads

129G79SS-13A 247H143SS-13A 364I212SS-14A 486I287SS-15A 601I350SS-16A 700J400SS-16A

Also the 634I540-16A.. just certified.

>

Pro38 Smoky Sams are about 80 grams each.

Right, I forgot about the Smoky Sams.

You guys are all "just making shit up".

ATF exempts ALL propellant actuated devices (including reloads and ejections and igniters) per 27 CFR 555.141-a-8.

The JUDGES ORDER affirms it certainly applies to all sport rocket motors (at minimum) (in addition).

Reloads are sport rocket motor components.

"In addition, the Court finds that the ATF's pronouncement that sport rocket motors are not PADs is invalid because it was made without compliance with the notice-and-comment rulemaking procedures of the OCCA and the APA."

Pardon me for citing COURT ORDERS and LAWS.

Now attack me for that.

Jerry

Jerry replied:

I have seen nothing in the regs you've quoted which could even remotely be interpreted as saying that propellent loads or igniters are exempt -- and believe me, I _want_ them to be exempt.

Once again you have quoted the PAD definition, but it makes no mention of individual components, reloads, or igniters.

The PAD exemption quoted here also makes no mention of reloads or ignitors.

Of course. But where does it mention igniters or reloads? It doesn't address those items at all in the materials you've quoted here.

Then stop cutting and pasting the same non-answer and address my question with facts instead of wishful thinking and obfuscation. Just show me any language in the regs which specifically exempts igniters and reloads (or cartridges).

Or air bags, or SU motors. Or any of the other items exempt.

That is because it describes the CHARACTERISTICS of exempt items.

That is BETTER than listing them one by one.

Here:

system which is actuated by a propellant or which releases and directs work through a propellant charge

Does a RL motor do that? Does a SU motor do that? Does an igniter do that? Does an ejection charge do that? Does a sheer pin break do that?

Yes.

Jerry

This should be in the FAQ.

Why?

That describes a PAD or PAIT.

Yes, but a _reload_ for that motor might be considered a different matter. Please prove me wrong!

Of course.

Nope. It's only an initiator. An igniter can be used to light explosives, fireworks, PADs or other items. It's not a Propellent Actuated Device, and it's intended use is not PAD-specific.