Complicating a problem

I have noticed lately that things such as ROL Auctions, and just user to user sales of rocket motors and reloads havent been done right and
could cause some issues for the hobby that nobody needs.
I have seen people trying to sell J,K,L and up reloads with just NAR/TRIPOLI Cert. You need an LEUP there is no way around the law. Selling an ATF restricted motor the wrong way will cause the fall of the Rocketry Hobby whether it seems that way when your selling that one K motor or not. Also I'm not sure on the rules for consumers selling to other consumers but I'm sure it cant be legal for this reason, In order for us to sell ATF restricted motors we have out LEDP (Low Explosives Dealer Permit) so it just doesnt seem like the would want two "Users" selling. I just want people to be more carefull so that we do not cuase even bigger problems.
The other issue I see is people shipping motors completely wrong. This is another big problem. I have noticed and heard that people are just shipping any motor Parcel Post, or even worse Priorty mail or Fed-EX. Look under USPS on the Aerotech Reg Resources page. ( http://www.aerotech-rocketry.com/customersite/resource_library/resource_library.html )
There is a list there of what can go USPS and everything else should be shipped Hazmat with proper paperwork. If you deal with a dealer that hasnt followed the rules, please do the right thing and report them.
Please also remeber Users are not intented to ship Motors, the list of motors god to go USPS Parcel post is intended for dealers, and Fed-Ed ground and UPS just wont let anyone ship hazmat. Take this into account when buying motors. You arent supposed to be selling them and shipping them yourself if you decide you dont want them.
Sorry if this came off as just complaining but it is a serious issue that needs to be fixed, these type of things hurt the hobby and can cause it to end even more as we know it. We at Countdown Hobbies are trying very hard to follow every rule correctly to make things better for the future and a very small group is making it hard on us and our customers.
If you have any specific questions or just want to talk about the issue feel free to email me ( snipped-for-privacy@countdownhobbies.com )
On a good note, just got in some of the ROUSE-TECH hardware and it looks great. We along with most dealers will be offering a "buy 3 get a motor free" promo soon, some have already started.
Also the Countdown Hobbies online store now offers a "Backorder option" and is also nearing 700 products!!! that takes a while let me tell you its not easy.
Hope everyone found this helpful and hope everyone has a great time flying in the fall!!!
I will be at the CTRA-NARCONN Invitational this coming weekend hope to see you there! (I will be flying I hope, Not selling)
Bruce Jones Countdown Hobbies www.countdownhobbies.com 203-790-9010 toll free 1-800-810-0281 snipped-for-privacy@countdownhobbies.com
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Go to http://www.nar.org/pdf/shipping_rocket_motors.pdf for the NAR take on the issue.
Countdown Hobbies wrote: ...

http://www.aerotech-rocketry.com/customersite/resource_library/resource_library.html
...
--
Will Marchant, NAR 13356, Tripoli 10125 L2
snipped-for-privacy@amsat.org http://www.spaceflightsoftware.com/will /
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this "house of cards" , will soon probably be coming to an end.... I have no doubt that both the BATFE and USPS are both aware of this practice and are just waiting to pounce on all of these people who are illegally mailing/shipping motors back and forth to one another. So much for self-regulation.....
This is why Ebay will not allow any rocket motors to be sold through there auction service: theres just no legal way to mail motors thru the US mails without prior USPS approval. And we all know that none of these people who are mailing/shipping motors are flagrantly violating the law.. but as usual, we all just turn a blind eye, do the old wink and nod.....
shockie B)

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shockwaveriderz wrote:

Or it just could be the opposite of what you expect... It could be ruled that disallowing the consumer from mailing/shipping motors is 'restraint of trade' and/or conflicts with consumer rights/protections, and that the restrictions are removed. My view is that (in the real world) if someone is prosecuted as an individual who follows the packaging rules that dealers use, that particular lawsuit would turn this law around -- thus, such a person will never be prosecuted...
David Erbas-White
P.S. That's not to infer that I ship motors, or ever (to the best of my knowledge/remembrance) have done so. Nor have I ever (again, to the best of my knowledge/remembrance) sold motors. I have, however, donated motors to other fliers at launches when they've been short of the right kind... The 'fudging' is because memory of what I may have done 30 years ago (and sometime even 30 minutes ago <G>) isn't what it used to be...
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Countdown Hobbies wrote:

Well obviously there IS a way around it, if people are doing it. It's like speeding. As long as the people involved are aware of the risk, it's their choice.

I'm so sick of this tired old chestnut. Everytime someone doesn't like something that someone else is doing, they drag out this "you're going to cause the end of the hobby" routine. People have been saying this for decades.

In what way is it making it hard on you and your customers?
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ray I have to take exception to your comments.
Lets see, you equate people selling JKL motors, mailing them through USPS or shipping them thru Fed/EX/UPS with "speeding".... There's an order of magnitude difference here. 1st, you usually don't goto prison for speeding. If you get caught mailing/shipping what the BATFE considers "explosive's the odds are you are going away for at least 10 years. Also how can you sanction, obviously illegal behavior by people? I mean how does this make the hobby , especially HPR look? Is this something we want going on during a time when we are in the fight for HPR's very existence? We go around saying we can "self-regulate" ourselves and we don't need no stinkin BATFE regulation, yet when somebody points out an obvious illegal activity going on, the response is, well its there ass and its not big deal anyway. IS it really going to take 5, 10,15,20 people in the hobby to get whacked by the USPS/BATFE/DOT, to stop illegal activity? Don't you think that this activity would be an idea place to do a "Crackdown" on, and then they can shout to the heavens, Lookie we caught an illegal explosive trading organization.They were a bunch of terrorists. And what does that say about the people doing this activity? They are simply criminals, performing criminal activity. There are doing no more nor less than what JI was fined for by the DOT. And when they do get caught, I will not donate any money to their legal defense funds.
shockie B)

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shockwaveriderz wrote:

First off, if you'll read my post more carefully you'll see that my comment about speeding was in regard to the sale of rocket motors, not shipping. Secondly, so far no one's been put away for 10 years for selling rocket motors, and I don't know of anyone who's been given such a stiff sentence for shipping them either. Is it possible? Maybe, but it's not happening.

Who said I "sanction" it? It's not up to me to either sanction or condemn. If the Feds want something done about it, they'll do it.

It makes it look like at least some of us believe that ATF regulation of non-explosives is BS.

Well, if we're right about APCP being a non-explosive and rocket motors being PADs, then it's not a big deal after all. Which I think is precisely why the ATF hasn't done anything about those sales.
As for "self-regulation", that means we enforce a few basic safety rules at sanctioned events, and certify only motors from legal manufacturers. It does not mean we're deputies of the ATF or enforcers for the post office.

Perhaps, though I've seen no proof that the motors being sold on ROL are being illegally shipped. It looks to me like at least some of the sellers are dealers.

That's your perogative.

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snipped-for-privacy@aol.com wrote:

Some of the sellers do charge Hazmat and appear to be following shipping laws, but I suspect that the (too many) ROL auction sellers who ask $5.00 additional for shipping for "H" or over reload kits are shipping them illegally. If not, do they just eat the $20 Hazmat charge themselves? Not likely. My question is why ROL doesn't stop this illegal behavior like EBay. And why do some of us in this hobby so willingly facilitate such illegal behavior? Looks to me like some just want to save $20. As has been said already, so much for self-regulation. Go ahead and laugh, but it IS junk like this that spurs increasing onerous regulation by the alphabet agency bureaucrats. Larry Lobdell Jr.
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There is no shipper with a $5 hazmat charge. IIRC UPS is up to $20. And you just can't pay the fee and ship hazmat. You have to be properly trained and authorized to do so by the shipper.

Because they don't care.

Because they don't care.
--
Bob Kaplow NAR # 18L >>> To reply, there's no internet on Mars (yet)! <<<
Kaplow Klips & Baffle: http://nira-rocketry.org/Document/MayJun00.pdf
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snipped-for-privacy@afo.net wrote:

Because it's not their job to enforce USPS regulations.

Nonsense. If the government cared enough to put a stop to this, they could simply enforce the existing regs.

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It is Tripoli's job to enforce ATF regulations (requiring LEMP).

Hello? Earth to Tripoli motor testing reg makers . . .
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Jerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA
Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to: snipped-for-privacy@gte.net>
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Jerry Irvine wrote:

Since they are putting their official sanction on motors, they are obligated to make sure that the manufacturers whose motors they are certifying are opertating legally. ROL is under no such obligation.

You've already proved that the DOT cares enough to crack down on persons who ship large quantities of motors illegally, so why would you expect TRA/NAR to sanction it?
Of course, you're still free to sell your motors online and ship them anyway you like, without TRA/NAR involvement. Then it's just your neck on the line. Live the lifestyle, Jerry!
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I think a federal prosecutor would yes, it is their job to enforce USPS and DT shipping requirements. Its their job because this hobby is sypposed to be regulated by self-regulation. IF ROL actually beleived in self-regulation(which is self-policing) then they would not be the facilitation business. WHat they are basically doing, is facilitating breaking the law.....that in itself is a crime... The reason EBAY enforces the USPS/DOT shipping laws, is that it actually knows the law: in ROL's case, the owner, doesn't know the law nor does he care about the law. Just remember this the next time you mail that over 30 g H motoro through the USPS: there might be a USPS postal inspector on the other end. I think the USPS/BATFE both are aware of ROL, and they are just biding their time, taking down names and such, and one of these days when its the right time, they will strike all around the country in a massive roundup of people who have been doing this now for years. And the Headlines will be "USPS/BATFE breaks up nationwide explosives smuggling ring". And alot of peoples lifes will be disrupted. And it wil be used against us in the court of public opinion.
God save us from ourselves! We have met the enemy and they are us.
shockie B)
wrote:

Because it's not their job to enforce USPS regulations.

Nonsense. If the government cared enough to put a stop to this, they could simply enforce the existing regs.
?
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shockwaveriderz wrote:

Right, it's the government's job, not ROL's.

By that "logic" ROL should prohibit all sales of all items, not just motors. By permitting these sales they are facilitating the potential crimes of fencing stolen goods, failure to pay sales taxes, operating a business without a license, mail fraud, etc. We've already seen plenty of instances of mail fraud committed by ROL sellers. Can you guarantee that every kit or component sold on ROL was legally obtained and is being legally sold? Can you guarantee that every dealer selling on ROL has a proper business license, and is paying the required income and sales taxes?

Wrong! If they knew and enforced the law, they would permit sales of motors by legitimate dealers who ship legally.

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snipped-for-privacy@aol.com wrote:

Some of the sellers do charge Hazmat and appear to be following shipping laws, but I suspect that the (too many) ROL auction sellers who ask $5.00 additional for shipping for "H" or over reload kits are shipping them illegally. If not, do they just eat the $20 Hazmat charge themselves? Not likely. My question is why ROL doesn't stop this illegal behavior like EBay. And why do some of us in this hobby so willingly facilitate such illegal behavior? Looks to me like some just want to save $20. As has been said already, so much for self-regulation. Go ahead and laugh, but it IS junk like this that spurs increasing onerous regulation by the alphabet agency bureaucrats. Larry Lobdell Jr.
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Has anyone reviewed the counter arguement?
DOT specifically exampts non-commerce sales from the regs. They have regularly cited "collectors" in the past as "non-commerce" despite the exchange of value.
I have commented on both sides of this issue. But it seems to me a large part of the problem is DOT inconsistently applying its own rules and making the rules as hard to decipher as possible.
Jerry
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Jerry Irvine wrote:

jerry, that lie didn't work for you, why do you think it would work for anybody else?
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as they say: you gonna have to CITE that one for me. And we all know that 90% of ROL isn't about "collectors"...
And how can the seller verify that the buyer is even "certfied" to receive such HPR motors in the first place? You mean Joe Seller is striking up a conversation online with Joe Buyer and asks Joe Buyer, you Level 2 certfied? And Joe Buyer says yes? Does Joe Seller then require that Joe Buyer provide PROOF that he is indeed currentyly certified Level2? And what if Joe Buyer says NO I have No cert? Does Joe Seller, because hes ahrd up and needs the money, just say, well ok? And what if Joe Buyer turns out to be Joe "the terrorist" Muhammand? And has been "collecting" K motors for a year now..... Now of the above strikes me as being Self-Regulation?
And Even if they are properly shipping as HAZMAT, they have to be party to E-7887 or other DOT exemptions.... Which means they actually have to undertaken hazmat shipping training. JUst because they are correctly shipping hazmat as hazmat, if they are doing it NOT being party to E-7887, then they are in violation of DOT shipping regs.
And according to NFPA 1127 which IS the TRA Safety Code, any TRA member that buys or sells HPR, is supposed to be certfied and keep sales records.
This whole "exercise" shows me and the world that there is alot of criminally inclined people in this hobby. Perhpas this is why the BATFE has deceide to try and ban it or shut it down? Could that be it? Could it be that they recognize that there is indeed no such thing as Self-Regulation? The above examples would seem to bear that out.
Now the moral relativism's among us will argue, as they already have that this is okay behavior? You know who you are? The ones who believe in situational ethics? These are the people who argue, that everything and anything is alright, it just depends on the "context" or the "situation" they find themselves.
"Moral relativism is the position that moral or ethical propositions do not reflect absolute or universal truths but instead emerge from social customs and personal preferences, and that there is no single standard by which to assess an ethical proposition's truth"
"Situational ethics refers to a particular view of ethics, in which absolute standards are considered less important than the requirements of a particular situation. The standards used may, therefore, vary from one situation to another, and may even contradict one another. This view of ethics is similar to moral relativism".
shockie B)

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shockwaveriderz wrote:

Your problem is in confusing legal technicalities with with morality. They are not the same. There are plenty of things which are immoral but legal, and plenty of things which are moral but illegal. Morality and ethics are not determined by the law.
And before you go setting yourself up on a pedestal of morality, looking down your nose at those who may not always obey every single law and regulation, you'd better make darn sure that YOU obey every single law and regulation at all times. No crossing the street in the middle of the block at any time of the day or night. No speeding, not even a little, under any circumstances. Find a penny in the street? Turn it in to the police. Sell a kit? Declare the income and pay the taxes. And above all, never ever make a move without first checking every local, state and federal regulation to make sure it's ok.
Oh, and what was that you said in another forum? Something along the lines of "it's ok to launch here but only if you don't ask permission". After you were told by every local authority that you couldn't get permission.
So much for your pedestal, Mr. Moral Relativist.

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Nope. Some shipments, non-commercial ones, are exwempt from ALL the regulations.

Read the DOT preamble.
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