Complicating a problem

I have noticed lately that things such as ROL Auctions, and just user
to user sales of rocket motors and reloads havent been done right and
could cause some issues for the hobby that nobody needs.
I have seen people trying to sell J,K,L and up reloads with just
NAR/TRIPOLI Cert. You need an LEUP there is no way around the law.
Selling an ATF restricted motor the wrong way will cause the fall of
the Rocketry Hobby whether it seems that way when your selling that one
K motor or not. Also I'm not sure on the rules for consumers selling to
other consumers but I'm sure it cant be legal for this reason, In order
for us to sell ATF restricted motors we have out LEDP (Low Explosives
Dealer Permit) so it just doesnt seem like the would want two "Users"
selling. I just want people to be more carefull so that we do not cuase
even bigger problems.
The other issue I see is people shipping motors completely wrong. This
is another big problem. I have noticed and heard that people are just
shipping any motor Parcel Post, or even worse Priorty mail or Fed-EX.
Look under USPS on the Aerotech Reg Resources page. (
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There is a list there of what can go USPS and everything else should be
shipped Hazmat with proper paperwork. If you deal with a dealer that
hasnt followed the rules, please do the right thing and report them.
Please also remeber Users are not intented to ship Motors, the list of
motors god to go USPS Parcel post is intended for dealers, and Fed-Ed
ground and UPS just wont let anyone ship hazmat. Take this into account
when buying motors. You arent supposed to be selling them and shipping
them yourself if you decide you dont want them.
Sorry if this came off as just complaining but it is a serious issue
that needs to be fixed, these type of things hurt the hobby and can
cause it to end even more as we know it. We at Countdown Hobbies are
trying very hard to follow every rule correctly to make things better
for the future and a very small group is making it hard on us and our
If you have any specific questions or just want to talk about the issue
feel free to email me ( )
On a good note, just got in some of the ROUSE-TECH hardware and it
looks great. We along with most dealers will be offering a "buy 3 get a
motor free" promo soon, some have already started.
Also the Countdown Hobbies online store now offers a "Backorder option"
and is also nearing 700 products!!! that takes a while let me tell you
its not easy.
Hope everyone found this helpful and hope everyone has a great time
flying in the fall!!!
I will be at the CTRA-NARCONN Invitational this coming weekend hope to
see you there! (I will be flying I hope, Not selling)
Bruce Jones
Countdown Hobbies
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toll free 1-800-810-0281
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this "house of cards" , will soon probably be coming to an end.... I have no doubt that both the BATFE and USPS are both aware of this practice and are just waiting to pounce on all of these people who are illegally mailing/shipping motors back and forth to one another. So much for self-regulation.....
This is why Ebay will not allow any rocket motors to be sold through there auction service: theres just no legal way to mail motors thru the US mails without prior USPS approval. And we all know that none of these people who are mailing/shipping motors are flagrantly violating the law.. but as usual, we all just turn a blind eye, do the old wink and nod.....
shockie B)
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Or it just could be the opposite of what you expect... It could be ruled that disallowing the consumer from mailing/shipping motors is 'restraint of trade' and/or conflicts with consumer rights/protections, and that the restrictions are removed. My view is that (in the real world) if someone is prosecuted as an individual who follows the packaging rules that dealers use, that particular lawsuit would turn this law around -- thus, such a person will never be prosecuted...
David Erbas-White
P.S. That's not to infer that I ship motors, or ever (to the best of my knowledge/remembrance) have done so. Nor have I ever (again, to the best of my knowledge/remembrance) sold motors. I have, however, donated motors to other fliers at launches when they've been short of the right kind... The 'fudging' is because memory of what I may have done 30 years ago (and sometime even 30 minutes ago ) isn't what it used to be...
Reply to
David Erbas-White
Well obviously there IS a way around it, if people are doing it. It's like speeding. As long as the people involved are aware of the risk, it's their choice.
I'm so sick of this tired old chestnut. Everytime someone doesn't like something that someone else is doing, they drag out this "you're going to cause the end of the hobby" routine. People have been saying this for decades.
In what way is it making it hard on you and your customers?
Reply to
ray I have to take exception to your comments.
Lets see, you equate people selling JKL motors, mailing them through USPS or shipping them thru Fed/EX/UPS with "speeding".... There's an order of magnitude difference here. 1st, you usually don't goto prison for speeding. If you get caught mailing/shipping what the BATFE considers "explosive's the odds are you are going away for at least 10 years. Also how can you sanction, obviously illegal behavior by people? I mean how does this make the hobby , especially HPR look? Is this something we want going on during a time when we are in the fight for HPR's very existence? We go around saying we can "self-regulate" ourselves and we don't need no stinkin BATFE regulation, yet when somebody points out an obvious illegal activity going on, the response is, well its there ass and its not big deal anyway. IS it really going to take 5, 10,15,20 people in the hobby to get whacked by the USPS/BATFE/DOT, to stop illegal activity? Don't you think that this activity would be an idea place to do a "Crackdown" on, and then they can shout to the heavens, Lookie we caught an illegal explosive trading organization.They were a bunch of terrorists. And what does that say about the people doing this activity? They are simply criminals, performing criminal activity. There are doing no more nor less than what JI was fined for by the DOT. And when they do get caught, I will not donate any money to their legal defense funds.
shockie B)
Reply to
First off, if you'll read my post more carefully you'll see that my comment about speeding was in regard to the sale of rocket motors, not shipping. Secondly, so far no one's been put away for 10 years for selling rocket motors, and I don't know of anyone who's been given such a stiff sentence for shipping them either. Is it possible? Maybe, but it's not happening.
Who said I "sanction" it? It's not up to me to either sanction or condemn. If the Feds want something done about it, they'll do it.
It makes it look like at least some of us believe that ATF regulation of non-explosives is BS.
Well, if we're right about APCP being a non-explosive and rocket motors being PADs, then it's not a big deal after all. Which I think is precisely why the ATF hasn't done anything about those sales.
As for "self-regulation", that means we enforce a few basic safety rules at sanctioned events, and certify only motors from legal manufacturers. It does not mean we're deputies of the ATF or enforcers for the post office.
Perhaps, though I've seen no proof that the motors being sold on ROL are being illegally shipped. It looks to me like at least some of the sellers are dealers.
That's your perogative.
Reply to
ATF regulations specifically allow for holders of user permits to sell surplus stocks to other licensees or permittees. But if you make a habit of this, the ATF will likely decide that you are abusing this provision of the regulations.
See 27 CFR 555.102(b)(2) at:
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Reply to
David Schultz
Depends on who you ask. Even with the BATFE, this isn't consistent across the country. I've bought "easy access" reloads and have yet to be asked for my LEUP by any dealer. In fact most of the dealers I've bought from don't sell anything regulated, yet they have H I and J reloads for sale. Yet my local JBGT seems to think that these motors are regulated. They WILL be if the provisions of NPRM ### (can't recall the number offhand) become law and we don't prevail in court, but they aren't yet. YMMV and other disclaimers apply.
You are correct that lots of private parties are selling motors, and most likely shipping them illegally. So is Grandma when she buys the starter set and ships it via mail or UPS to the grandkids out of state. I can't even legally ship a quart of motor oil I bought for a friend of mine down in GA!
And ROL does nothing but encourage this behavior. So complain to ROL. BUt be forwarned, they don't like ANYONE airing dirty laundry, especially about them. They send everyone to RMR for that :-)
Reply to
Bob Kaplow
27 CFR 555.141-a-8.
I'll prove it.
ALL "sport motors" are ATF exempt.
Here's the law that shows that:
27 CFR 555.11, Propellant Actuated Device. Any tool or special mechanized device or gas generator system which is actuated by a propellant or which releases and directs work through a propellant charge.
27 CFR 555.141 exemptions (a) (8) Gasoline, fertilizers, propellant actuated devices, or propellant actuated industrial tools manufactured, imported, or distributed for their intended purposes.
Here's the JUDGE's words verifying it.
"In addition, the Court finds that the ATF's pronouncement that sport rocket motors are not PADs is invalid because it was made without compliance with the notice-and-comment rulemaking procedures of the OCCA and the APA."
Here is the court order that is from:
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Just repetitiously factual Jerry
Then stop illegally demanding LEUP's for EXEMPT goods.
Reply to
Jerry Irvine
That's true. Speeding allegedly causes or contributes to tens of thousands of accidents every year, with actual deaths, injuries, property damage and public and political visibility.
The example you cite does none of these things.
Reply to
Jerry Irvine
"Many times"? How about never.
jerry, Why don't you quote one of these supposed posts by Ray, or are you lying again?
Reply to
Dave Grayvis
Also incorrect. Speeding, which where I live is defined as driving 56 MPH on roads that were designed for 80 MPH, is rarely the cause of an accident.
DUI is the #1 cause of accidents. Driving too fast for conditions is #2 (note, this can be driving 20mph in a 55 zone in bad weather). Driving while distracted (cell phone, newspaper, gawking, etc) is one of the top ten. Speeding doesn't even make the top ten.
Speed limit enforcement is all about revenue generation, NOT about safety.
There is a DOT reg that requires that speed limits be set to the speed at which 85% of the drivers would remain under if there were no posted speed limit. It requires engineering studies. These are rarely done.
If I were to drive 55 on the roads to work, I'd be passed by every car ont he road, and would be a major safety hazard to the traffic that is moving at 80.
Reply to
Bob Kaplow
Anybody that says I'm wrong is crazy this is a problem and it does make it harder on me and you. I get letters from Aerotech about how they want their dealers to stop and make sure they dont ship motors/reloads wrong. It is just feeding fuel for the ATF's fire.
As for any H,I,J reloads you have seen with no LEUP, that is becuase some dont need it, example, look at AEROTECH's price sheets, restricted access is where you need your LEUP NOT East access so some relaods H,I,J are ok.
I wasnt trying to start a fight or anything just stating the obvious problem
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