<devils advocate mode on>

Now I'm going to play devils advocate for awhile....

Over the past year or so in here( meaning RMR) at every point I have seen and read numerous people "poo paw" the idea/concept that a LMR/HPR could be "weaponized" ........AND even if it was "weaponized" , there were much better candidates around as weapon delivery vehicles.....In fact if you look at some of the current RMR posting to this latest uproar over the "twin towers" of deceit (schumer/lautenberg), you will still see people saying the same thing.......

I guess it never dawned on anybody that exhorting LMR/HPR were "poor" weapon delivery systems would convince anybody , especially politicians and the ATF, in this post 911 world, that they would be a benign thing......

Since I'm playing devils advocate here, and this is the thinking that is currently being thought in the DOJ/ATF, lets see what they see shall we?

Terrorist scenario #1

Sleeping al-queida cells in the US, purchases O class motors(over a period of time) ( or they make their own APCP O motors), scores of them and they create LMR and a multiple rocket launch platform( the back of a pickup truck) where they launch a "swarm" of LMR each containing bio or chem warfare powders........

Under this scenario, the terrorists are located in 20 major cities, each with a pickup truck, each launching 20 missiles into the wind so they drift over populated areas, releasing their deadly content......

Now I know the above sounds, well farfetched........But up until the hijacked

747's slammed into the WTC and the pentagon, evidently our security people never envisioned the use of large jet airplanes filled with highly combustible jetfuel as a wmd....

The point is this.....yes gasoline,kerosene,etc are all better explosives than say BP or APCP.....and yes, their are other propellants that can be "homegrown" but the politicians and the ATF don't care about that because they know that they really can't do much to control those ideas......BUT they can control APCP, BP and LMR/HPR, because only a few small number of people are interested in using them, and they have virtually NO political clout.....

Terrorist scenario #2

Sleeping al-queida cells have purchased large model aircraft and in addition to redundant RC equipment they also contain off the shelf self guidance systems, night vision equip, radio cameras etc...........this large model aircraft also contains 4 LMR with homemade APCP N motors....each rocket containing Cesium 237 and 5 lbs of homemade explosive.........

AT the correct time,10 of these large aircraft are sent airborne into Washington dc...from different directions........since they are so small ( and have been covered in carbon fiber and fiberglass) and are flying so low (at night) they are not detected.....at the right moment, each plane launches their 4 missiles which are designed to explode in mid-air........dropping C 237 all over the Washington dc area........the planes are then placed into suicide mode where they crash into various targets in the DC area...

The panic from all these "small" explosions all going off at once in combination with radioactive sensors going BEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEP......causes widespread panic..........Small dirty bombs......who would have ever thought it?

DO you see my point? The HSA/ATF/FBI/CIA/NSC , i.e. the security apparatus of this country have people sitting around making $60K per year looking at stuff like the above.......The only way they can see to contain or control it is to PUT US OUT OF BUSINESS.........

The point of the 2 above scenario's is to show how, even though the rockets themselves make poor delivery vehicles, with a little imagination, they could be used well enough to create TERROR........which is the goal of course of terrorists..........

I hope I didn't give anybody any "good/bad" ideas on using rockets for nefarious purposes.......and I hope I don't disappear from the face of the earth after posting this ( WHO is that outside my door?)......

The purpose of this little "exercise" is to show you what we are up against.........You don't think the ATF and other security orgs aren't whispering in politicians ears about the above?

And I'm certain that as soon as they get rid of HPR they will then go after Model Aircraft, or at least, larger ones......Now of course this is a never ending and unwinnable battle.....There will always be people and objects that any half smart person can and will use to kill other people......

shockie (

Reply to
shockwaveriderz
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I agree totally man. My thing is, if a terrorist is going to do something, they aren't going to obtain a permit. If the ATF regulates APCP terrorists will still be able to acquire it, and hobby rocketeers won't. If no permit is required the terrorists can still get it, but so can hobby rocketeers. Also, wouldn't a truckbed full of 12' tall rockets look conspicuous?

Reply to
Stephen

stephen" ahhh they could launch them at night where nobody would see them.......and there are vehicles that they could place 12" rockets in so that they were never seen........... shockie B)

Reply to
shockwaveriderz

With all this talk about limiting access to explosives or materials that terrorist's can use to create terror, those blow hards in DC might as will put restrictions on ALL items right down to a toothpick!

I mean come on you DC dorks, let's get real.

HEY, here is a novel idea. Why not spend MORE money and time to FIND these terrorists. I know it may sound tough, but terrorism will keep going if you don't. No matter if you even gets down to limiting the amount of horse shit one can have on their property.

SHEESH!

KMJK=I feel better now! :-)

Reply to
Karl Martin Joseph Kowert

hijacked 747's slammed into the WTC and the pentagon,

airplanes filled with highly combustible jetfuel as a wmd....

I thought that was the ending of Clancy's "Debt of Honor".

-dave w

Reply to
David Weinshenker

"shockwaveriderz" wrote in news: snipped-for-privacy@comcast.com:

As I said, if someone unfamiliar starts making large purchases of ammonium perchlorate, that should raise some flags.

It doesn't, but that's not unique to rocketry supplies.

Right, these are not realistic threat scenarios in the sense that for every LMR/HPR/AR attack you propose, I can come up with a cheaper, more effective, easier to pull off and scarier scenario.

Right, but that doesn't make them realistic. That's *my* point.

I don't think the BATF seriously believes Al Qaeda is going to kill thousands of US citizens using APCP. I think they see this as an easy target that makes it look like they're doing something, makes them feel like they're doing something. When we get a Homeland Security alert that says the threat level has been increased and we need to watch out for people doing suspicious things with small rockets, I'll take the threat seriously.

In the meantime, despite the incredible inconvenience increased security has caused hundreds of thousands of air travelers, the latest alert is about ... *commercial aircraft*.

len.

Reply to
Leonard Fehskens

Leonard Fehskens wrote in news:Xns93C99A10BD29lenfehskenshpcom@16.105.248.153:

More importantly, ATF regulation of motor and propellant purchases does not address this scenario anyway.

len.

Reply to
Leonard Fehskens

So if they were going to do something without a permit, they would simply need to find someone who loudly proclaims that they will sell "High Power Motors" to anyone who wants them since in their opinion there are no legal requirements for permits.

Do we know of anyone like that?

Are they the real danger to us all?

Can you name the Twilight Zone episode(s) this most closely resembles?

-Fred Shecter NAR 20117

-- ""Remove "zorch" from address (2 places) to reply.

Reply to
Fred Shecter

"shockwaveriderz" wrote in news: snipped-for-privacy@comcast.com:

But I see you got a really good quantity discount on periods.....

Anyway, we're both agreeing strenuously.

len.

Reply to
Leonard Fehskens

len: thats because I suffer from something.......can't quite remember what it is though........hmmm......... shockie B)

Reply to
shockwaveriderz

time) ( or they make their own APCP O motors), scores

a pickup truck) where they launch a "swarm" of LMR

pickup truck, each launching 20 missiles into the

Based on the launches I've seen, all the terrorists are caught while trying to get the danged motors to ignite.

Not enough payload to really do anything useful.

The BATFE, DOJ, etc. are promoting rocketry as a method for the terrorists to use, based on the idea that maybe if the terrorists think the US govt. thinks it's such a good idea, the terrorists'll be dumb enough to try it.

Zooty

Reply to
zoot

Amen, amen. Anything, at any time, can be used for illegal/dangerous/terroristic purposes. Once you start down that slope, the rational end is to forbid darn near everything (we're already well started). That's not the country I was born in, and not the world I want to live in.

We will not make ourserlves safe by putting restrictions on honest citizens. We will make ourselves safe by punishing or eliminating evildoers. We must punish criminal acts, not try (in vain) to make it impossible to commit them.

The way to eliminate terror is to eliminate terrorists. Make it very clear that if you crash a plane into a few thousand Americans, we're going to crash something a good bit more destructive into the city of your birth - preferably into your own family. If someone hijacks a plane, shoot down the plane. You'll give out some civilian medals to the families of the innocents aboard, but the terrorists must never, never, NEVER achieve their goals. Quite soon the message will get across.

Not much more than a century ago, the person of one of our citizens was sacrosanct. If one American was murdered on foreign soil, there was hell to pay. Now we let them take dozens hostage for months on end. Perhaps it's time to return to the earlier policy; everyone should be scared shitless to touch an American citizen.

(Pant, pant - is it time for my pill yet?)

-- Scott Schuckert

Reply to
Scott Schuckert

OK, lets say that a terrorist could come up with a way to use hobby rockets as a weapon. So you decide that they are dangerous and you outlaw them completely. You still have serveral problems. First these people are reesourceful and would just find something else to use as a weapon, there is no way that everything that can be used as into a weapon could be removed from society. Second, rocketry information knowledge is common knowledge in book and the internet, rocket fuel and components can be made from household items and as I pointed out in my first point, these people are resourceful if they want rockets they will make them or buy them you will not be able to stop them.

Lets face it its a dangerous world with dangerous people. Taking away liberties is not a way to win in fact it is what they (terroists) want. So in the end they win and we lose, if you give into the terror. Our fear-mongering senators are givin in.

These senators are just doing what they feel with make them look like they are doing something to help solve the problem, pure and simple fear-mongering. The senators were just looking for a straw man to use as a vehicle to push their views and show what they were doing in the "war on terror" and we helped provide it to them in the form of S.724. They know that rocket are not and never have been a problem but it sure makes for a great sound bite and news clip and it sure gets them noticed which after all is what its all about for a senator, press.

This bill is dead and will never make it out of the senate, it will die on the vine this year and with the elections coming you will not be able to get anything else in front of them for a while. If you do they will just turn it into a media circus again and use it to push their agenda and show what wonderful saviors they are for the common man, after all they are only looking out for our better intestest - are'nt they?

Scott Pearson

read numerous people "poo paw" the idea/concept that

there were much better candidates around as weapon

to this latest uproar over the "twin towers" of deceit

delivery systems would convince anybody , especially

currently being thought in the DOJ/ATF, lets see what they

time) ( or they make their own APCP O motors), scores

of a pickup truck) where they launch a "swarm" of LMR

a pickup truck, each launching 20 missiles into the

747's slammed into the WTC and the pentagon,

filled with highly combustible jetfuel as a wmd....

say BP or APCP.....and yes, their are other

about that because they know that they really can't

because only a few small number of people are

to redundant RC equipment they also contain off the

etc...........this large model aircraft also contains 4 LMR with

homemade explosive.........

Washington dc...from different directions........since they

flying so low (at night) they are not detected.....at

explode in mid-air........dropping C 237 all over the

they crash into various targets in the DC area...

combination with radioactive sensors going

bombs......who would have ever thought it?

of this country have people sitting around making $60K

contain or control it is to PUT US OUT OF

themselves make poor delivery vehicles, with a little

the goal of course of terrorists..........

nefarious purposes.......and I hope I don't disappear from

against.........You don't think the ATF and other security orgs

Model Aircraft, or at least, larger ones......Now of

people and objects that any half smart person can and

Reply to
Scott

OK, but would it be acceptable if the terrorists pay in Susan B. Anthony dollars?

David Erbas-White

Reply to
David Erbas-White

And a suitcase of 2's!

Jerry

Reply to
Jerry Irvine

As long as they don't defile the sanctity of the Golden Dollar.

-Shread Vector NRA #1 Paramount Leader

-- ""Remove "zorch" from address (2 places) to reply.

Reply to
Fred Shecter

The BATF and DOJ are aiding the terrorists.

Figures. As long as we have terrorists, the Bush administration hopes they won't get voted out of the White House.

Was that the real reason behind the Iraq invasion?

Zooty

Reply to
zoot

Which proves that regulating the sale and storage of hobby rocket motors would be totally ineffectual. Anyone could make their own without a permit.

Sure. But the fact remains that anyone, regardless of ethnicity, who purchases large quantities of very large motors and doesn't fly them would attract LOTS of suspicion.

Reply to
RayDunakin

pickup truck, each launching 20 missiles into the

Or tweny helium filled ballons. Or twenty kites. Or they just spill the stuff on the ground in the subway.

and stupid.

redundant RC equipment they also contain off the

etc...........this large model aircraft also contains 4 LMR with

homemade explosive.........

Why would these RC planes need rockets? Couldn't the planes do the job alone? Do you have a clue what an N motor weighs? If the RC plane could carry four of them, it would be one big model.

Washington dc...from different directions........since they

flying so low (at night) they are not detected.....at

explode in mid-air........dropping C 237 all over the

they crash into various targets in the DC area...

Or they simply carry the dirty bomb into town themselves and detonate at ground level.

combination with radioactive sensors going

bombs......who would have ever thought it?

of this country have people sitting around making $60K

Could you make a weapon out of a model or HPR rocket? Of course! Duh! Jeez, people make weapons out of PVC pipe and potatoes. The question is, is this a significant threat? And the answer is no. As numerous people have pointed out, adding the rocket to the senario only needlessly complicates things for the terrorist and returns nothing in the way of improved kill power or terror.

The scariest thing about the two WTC attacks and the OK City boming was that they were done so simply. Why would a terrorist bother trying to make a rocket motor? There's no up side for him.

I don't know if this was the stupidist thing you ever wrote but it sure wasn't the smartest.

- Jeff Taylor

Reply to
Jeff Taylor

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