High power/ATF questions

On Fri, 17 Nov 2006 16:26:30 GMT, snipped-for-privacy@pacbell.net wrote:


Moral of the story is that the composition of commercial APCP we use in the quanities we use in the intended purpose we use it, it 'should' not explode. I suppose under the conditions that are not the intended use, you can get a lot of stuff that isn't normally considered an explosive to explode. Phil
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
Phil Stein wrote:

Agreed,
The keyword is AP. Aerosolized grain dust or coal can explode. I suspect if it was simply a big pile of APCP grains, one would have a big fire but not an explosion. I have seen the recipe of an AP explosive that was used in World War One but the manufacturing of it is involved and requires the additions of explosive agents that are indeed dangerous and tightly controlled (as they should be). They are items that have no use in rocketry. I don't even believe there is a commercial use for this in the explosives industry today.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

AP is a component of APCP - they aren't the same thing.
Oxygen and Hydrogen can combine explosively, and both are components of water, but water isn't an explosive.
-- Roger
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
Ya did'nt read the whole thing. APCP can if there is a large enough quantity.
KT
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

Sorry, I took the bait once. I won't do it again. :-)
-- Roger
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
snipped-for-privacy@pacbell.net writes:

Not the form we use it in. Not the primary or intended purpose. Cake flour can detonate too.

AP is not APCP.
--
Bob Kaplow NAR # 18L >>> To reply, there's no internet on Mars (yet)! <<<
Kaplow Klips & Baffle: http://nira-rocketry.org/Document/MayJun00.pdf
  Click to see the full signature.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On 17-Nov-2006, kaplow snipped-for-privacy@encompasserve.org.mars (Bob Kaplow) wrote:

Yes, you are right there. We don't have motors 60" dia or larger weighing several tons.

Read the whole email. I said APCP can detonate given it is in a large enough hunk.
KT
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
You need to read the accident report before you say there was no fuel. The AP was store inproperly, Too close together and with no barriers, House keeping was nonexistant and so the plastic shavings, scraps of all kinds mixed with AP was the initial fuel. The plastic containment vessels became the fuel later as this fire progressed.
Dennis
wrote:

Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
Ammonium perchlorate is an oxidizer yes, but the molecule has it's own fuel component. It will energetically decompose readily as a monopropellant at pressures above 700 psi with a theoretical sea level Isp of about 170. The talk that APCP that will only DDT with HE materials added (and where, when and why) is also without basis. Materials such as RDX/HMX are only added to specialized propellant that tend to be used in reduced smoke applications for example. Way too much misinformation in this forum.
Anthony J. Cesaroni President/CEO Cesaroni Technology/Cesaroni Aerospace http://www.cesaronitech.com / (941) 360-3100 x101 Sarasota (905) 887-2370 x222 Toronto
wrote:

Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
Anthony,
You are the expert. Educate me here. (Please I do not mean that as sarcasm at all as I respect that you would be one who would know.) Can APCP grains out in the open explode by themselves? I don't mean with doctoring. I mean if they can, I don't know why Tripoli/NAR is pursuing the lawsuit as it would be doomed to failure. (I did donate BTW) I take it if there was some liberalization of the rules, you and other manufacturers could benefit from purchases from more casual modelers and there might be some encouragement for more participation in HPR. Develop a launch range and they will come sort of thing. My contention is it would be perfectly safe for one to store a reasonable amount of propellant grains on hand with a modicum of caution. Most modelers can't afford to hold large amounts anyways. Yes, I know there are real serious folks who store grains on a grand scale and I have no issue for control there. Please go ahead and change my mind here. Again, I mean no disrespect as I do not want to have my facts wrong.
Kurt
Anthony Cesaroni wrote:

Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
Use your propellant and rocket motors as intended. The DDT issue in this tread is moot in that regard. I simply take issue with statements and claims that get made that aren't based on facts or good science.
Anthony J. Cesaroni President/CEO Cesaroni Technology/Cesaroni Aerospace http://www.cesaronitech.com / (941) 360-3100 x101 Sarasota (905) 887-2370 x222 Toronto

Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
Thanks,
Hope we win the suit so I could by a grain or two from your company without a bunch of rigamarole.
Kurt
Anthony Cesaroni wrote:

Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
If you decide to buy a grain, buy a casing for it too. 8-)
Phil

Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
I'll have to as I don't have the means to make em and I don't mind supporting the industry. Although my prefect did a 12 inch 24mm case for me that we get an H-200 out of. :-)
Phil Stein wrote:

Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
I think you're confusing "detonation" with "failure" of the motor casing. If you were to take the same amount of APCP used in those motor tests, place it in a parking lot and light it, the effect would be MUCH different than if you put it in a casing that allows the pressure to increase.
Also, the explosion video you cited was an explosion of pure AP, which has different characteristics than APCP.
P.S. Flour can also cause a flour plant to "detonate"/"explode" under the right circumstances.
On Nov 17, 11:26 am, snipped-for-privacy@pacbell.net wrote:

Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
Kurt wrote:

1) You cannot "buy" a copy of the Orange Book. The ATF gives them away not to mention that it is available in a much better form than the court filing on the ATF web site: http://www.atf.gov/explarson/fedexplolaw/index.htm
Last published in 2000.
2) A much more up to date version of the law and regulations is available online.
law: http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode18/usc_sup_01_18_10_I_20_40.html
regulations: http://www.access.gpo.gov/nara/cfr/waisidx_06/27cfr555_06.html
--
David W. Schultz
http://home.earthlink.net/~david.schultz /
  Click to see the full signature.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

Hello David,
I went to what I thought was a "govermint" site to try to download or see how I could get a copy but they wanted money. If they're free for the asking then I do indeed stand corrected. I don't remember the site address as I don't have the prospect of passing an inspection and there are not enough LEUP holders around that could provide for contingency for myself. It's not the money involved that irks me. It's the issue that the propellant is treated as some super dangerous high explosive when it's not. I did download the ATF filing that has a copy in there. Thanks.
Kurt
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
This is what I understand right now, and I do not have the details of rules and regs like many do. This is how my permit experience went and what I have.
1) In order for you to buy a motor with more than 62.5g of propellant in the motor or reload kit, you need a LEUP.
2) In order to get a LEUP, you have to have provisions to store what you do not use, but still own at the end of a launch. This does not have to be your storage, but it has to be documented to be someone who can legally posess and store the material. A club member or vendor can perform this for you.
3) The local guys hold the keys to the first door. ATF will grant a variance for storage, even in an attached garage. If you do have an attached garage (like me) you will need a separate magazine to store igniters/e-matches. Yes, it sucks. I bought two of the commercial Type 4 mags from US Explosive, then four of the 5 tumbler, 7/16" hasp Master locks. From my perspective, it was not worth my time to fab my own mags.
My town, just outside of Buffalo, NY, required a Hazmat permit ($25/year) but does allow storage. NY State does not have any restrictions. Apart from my own application change (contingency to local storage) my experience was only painful in the pocketbook because of the two mags. I reminded my wife and my self that this is still waaaaayyy cheaper than a boat or classic cars. The expensive part is feeding the HPR rockets.
My motor magazine is empty, I've burned all that I bought. I did have at one time two motors for a few weeks. My igniter mag has some e-matches in it. I intend to stock up via mail order early next year. Hazmat charges apply to packages, not motors, so you can spread the charge across a few reloads to minimize the cost impact.
--
Tom Koszuta
Western New York Sailplane and Electric Flyers
  Click to see the full signature.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On 2006-11-16 22:07:40 -0500, "Leonard Diamond"

One of our members (quark) runs a business selling motors at various launches in the area. As the "Club LEUP" holder, He is able to store our motors for us that exceed the limit. One does not need a LEUP to use them, only store them. You must be attempting or have attained NAR-TRA certification to use the motors, nothing else, according to our club rules.
To buy the motors, we must order them in advance. He is not allowed to transport multiple motors for 'possible' or provisional purchase.
His magazine is a simple red metal box, much like a tool box, with two built in key locks. It is very small.
--

PP
--------------------------------------
Deactivate the DYNOMITE to reply.
  Click to see the full signature.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

...and is available for sale on merlinmissiles.com .
--

PP
--------------------------------------
Deactivate the DYNOMITE to reply.
  Click to see the full signature.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

Polytechforum.com is a website by engineers for engineers. It is not affiliated with any of manufacturers or vendors discussed here. All logos and trade names are the property of their respective owners.