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His lies are not a subject he is willing to address head-on so he must attack the messenger. I am on several forums. He does not feel guilty being a liar. In fact I predict he will escalate since his lies were instrumental in a $40 grand fine. One he has taken massive publioc pleasure in.

Jerry

What lies are you talking about? Be specific.

Please explain this with specifics.

From what I've seen, you didn't need Fred's help in getting fined and the DOT document did not refer to him.

Hey, Phil, look again... on page 4, the fourth paragraph from the top mentions: "a June 26, 2001 letter from Mr. W. E. Wallace of the Maryland Delaware Rocketry Association ... raising questions..."

-dave w

How did Fred's letter cause jerry to ship motors illegally without proper paperwork?

Suppose that instead of saying (in effect) "Isn't this guy Irvine trying to pull something deceptive?", the letter had said "Isn't this the sort of propellant that tested out as 'not even classified as explosive' in masses with dimensions applicable to model rocket engines?"

The DOT document listed Fred's letter in their paper trail, indicating that they gave _some_ significance to what he said... one can only speculate how it might have shifted things around if he had said the other thing and stood by it. (His claim that doing this would have put _him_ in some kind of trouble with DOT is less than credible.)

If the deal had gone down the other way, then it would have been established that the motors would have been "legal" to ship without "proper 'explosives' paperwork": which was the whole point of having that testing - i.e., the "ACS Reaction Labs" report - done in the first place, wasn't it?

So Fred's letter, while it didn't cause Jerry to do anything one way or another, may have been part of how DOT came to say what they did about it...

-dave w

Asking questions does not mean Fred lied about anything. Jerry said Fred lied to them. I see that I misstated what I meant. Sorry.

Also when Fred asked those questions he was trying to help Jerry.

COmbine the fact that Fred knew that Jerry had a history for taking liberties with the truth, Fred's need to maintain his credibility in an existing DOT relationship and Fred's desire to help, I think he did a reasonable thing.

How did Fred's letter cause jerry to ship motors illegally without proper paperwork?

I just explained the answer to that question in my previous posting.

-dave w

Actually you didn't. jerry said it was Fred's fault he (jerry) got caught by the DOT for illegally shipping rocket motors. What did Fred do or say that caused jerry to illegally ship rocket motors?

The stuff that Jerry got nailed for had nothing to do with Fred. Jerry may have posted that before his medication took effect.

I didn't realize I had such influence on such a large Federal agency..(:-)

You DA MAN!! (does that mean you get the 40 gran?)

Na, I was past that stage and trying to cut through all the bull S$%t, jerry had professed.

How about the whole paragraph, cut from the original letter MS word file, faxed to DOT? I'm sure jerry has the complete letter.

"It is now my understanding; Mr. Irvine is still claiming no response from you or your office. I find it difficult to believe Mr. Irvine has complied with the instructions provided him, with no response from your office; unless, he is taking liberties with the truth, there are problems he has failed to disclose, and or both. As a result of my cynical opinion and frustration, I responded to Mr. Irvine through a third party; "If he wished, I would hand deliver the document copies to your office or fax them to you myself". To my surprise, Mr. Irvine responded, " he has no problem with me doing either". So, as I am a man of my word, the attached documents, include the information Mr. Irvine claims to have faxed to you at your office."

Fred

That sounds like helping him since he claimed that he was getting no response. I'm sure is appreciates and is in fact overjoyed by the fact that he finally got a response.

BINGO and thanks for the common sense assessment.

Fred

Hell no, I have yet to even see my fee for consulting, jerry has mentioned on several occasions..(:-)

Fred

I hope you're not surprised.