OK - So Jerry Screwed up

Jerry broke the law, shame on him. Jerry mislabeled a box, shame on him. Jerry lied at least once about what was going on (all the statements can not be true, so one has to be a lie), shame on him. Jerry may have made it even harder to ship rocket motors, shame on him. Jerry plays fast and loose with the rules, shame on him.
Now that that is out of the way....
Here are some things to ponder:
1) BATFE is going to write new rules, what is the community's position on it? 2) DOT has rules that have be be followed, but may not be completely clear to everyone (though they are better than some of the other government rules I have read), what is the community going to do to work with DOT to get the rules clear? 3) How are we as a community going to deal with the National Fire Protection Association? What do we want as a community? 4) The various state and federal agencies that have land we want to launch on, are tightening the rules (current case is point is the Michigan Department of Natural Resources), what are we going to do as a community about it.
YES Virginia, Jerry screwed up, shame on him...
BUT We have work to do, to get the rest of this done.....
What are you going to do about it?
Doug Houseman

Sorry Doug - wrong forum, I have discovered, for those questions.
Now if you want to poke fun at Jerry Irvine, you are in the right place.
If you want to complain the dark forces of the evil government empire are out to squash your hobby, you're in the right place.
If you want to call anybody who does not think the BATF is the equivalent of either the KGB or STAVAK an idiot and make fun of them, you are in the right place.
Constructive discussion, nope.
Although I keep trying, because there are some basically good people out here who do care about preserving the hobby and could not care less whether Jerry Irvine killed Elvis.
Keep trying. Perhaps enough signal can yet drown out the noise.
A
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Amazing. At least once a day I check out rmr and HOPE there is something either about building rockets or something constructive on how to make the hobby more enjoyable throught these uncertain times. Posts like Doug's and Al's are a sure sign that there are a few positive minds out there yet.
Stones
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Yeah, although I checked and I think you also do what I so when there is a craving for rocket stuff -> Head over to TRF.
There are about a dozen guys here that if I knew they consistently read/posted in TRF, then I'd probably only come back here for entertainment value. Which is a sad statement.
Kevin T., Gassway, David E-W, Joel C. Frank U., anything named Gates, come to mind.
While I have seen each of them down in the scum, these are some guys that my reading and launch conversations indicate have the knowledge I want.
Hence I keep coming back seeking tidbits.
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so true Al.... IF Jerry would just go away and never come back here....that would take 99.9 % of the jerry haters out of here too...
But Jerry is obviously a stubborn individual who is more than willing to put up with all of this abuse.....I guess its because he sees himself as the rightful "inventor" of LMR/HPR and has this complex about going down in the history of rocketry.....theres no doubt he will go down in history and get credit where credit is due, but his personal failings and shortcomings will far outweigh anything positive he will get credit for what he may have done for sport rocketry....
remember its the winners that write the history for the losers..........
shockie B)
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shockwaveriderz wrote:
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If the Jerry haters would just go away on their own, it would be even better.
-dave w

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better.
Actually, if everyone could make the smallest of efforts to get along or at least ignore whoever or whatever aggravates them, it would be better for all of us. Lots of good energy going to waste here that could be directed to helping the hobby.
Randy

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You're not trying very hard. You just had a great opportunity to engage in "constructive discussion" and you chose to add to the noise instead...
[sigh]
Mario Perdue NAR #22012 Sr. L2 for email drop the planet
http://roci.indyrockets.org "X-ray-Delta-One, this is Mission Control, two-one-five-six, transmission concluded."

In this case, guilty as charged...
I am just so very weary of hoping that I can pop in here and tap the brains of some hard core rocketeers. It gets frustrating when a technical post will generate 5-10 replies, and the same old spleen venting will choke up hundreds of lines of, in my opinion, drivel.
Your point is well taken though.
A
P.S. If you spell-check rocketeer you get racketeer. Coincidence or conspiracy?
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whether
concluded."

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Factoid.

Jerry Irvine wrote:
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In your case, YES!

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You are certainly enjoying yourself with this.

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I agree. I'd just about given up on RMR before the original post in this thread. I've decided to hang in a bit longer because there's still hope. And to keep my post from being just a bit more of the same old stuff...
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The BATFE is going to revise their interpretation of the laws, which amounts to making rules. I think that we need to continue with the legislative and judicial work that has been started by the various rocketry groups. We may not be able to stop everything they want to do, but we can make sure they follow the rules to the letter. Maybe all the additional work will cause them to look elsewhere for easy borwnie points.
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I think the DOT rules are fairly well understood by most people in the hobby and they primarily apply to the manufacturers and distributers. I think that the manufacturers should take the lead if there is a problem with these rules and we should support them if they ask for any support.
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I, personally, think that the NFPA rules are fairly reasonable.
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I've never encountered any problems flying rockets in Indiana. Perhaps the people who are having problems in other states can relate their experiences to us and we can offer suggestions on how to approach a solution.
Mario Perdue NAR #22012 Sr. L2 for email drop the planet
http://roci.indyrockets.org "X-ray-Delta-One, this is Mission Control, two-one-five-six, transmission concluded."

Hmmmm .....
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Soooo..... Al .... you've been here before, right? ; )
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Don't count on it. ; )
Randy

doug: some good questions although as far as a community deciding any of your questions, there will only be a handful of people who will actually make the decisions for the rest of us.... But I will give my viewpoints...
shockie B)
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........ If by NEW RULES you mean a new PAD exemption, I suppose the BATFE will learn from any mistakes they made with NPRM968 and focuse narrowly any changes to the PAD exemptions such that they only affect us, by US, I mean the rocketry community. ........
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........ I am unaware of what specific DOT problems we are having with any DOT rules..please specify ........
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........ Again I don't know what you mean by "deal with the NFPA".... I am not aware that they are doing anything negative towards sport rocketry.... WE do have some influence with the NFPA ..... ........
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...... Again I personally am unware of any problems in this area.....what exactly is MDNR doing ? ......
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Some disagreements.
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I like your thinking.

doug houseman wrote:
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Good questions, Doug.
You know, from the attention that specific topics get on rmr, I think many rocketeers here cannot, or will not, see outside their fish bowl.
When you look at the "big picture", the entire pet store is being mis-managed. Many fish bowls in the store are getting smaller and smaller and contain fewer and fewer fish. Its not just us.
Our issues are only a symptom of the real problem; the willingness of our own government to impose regulations upon law abiding citizens and a willingness, or apathy, on the part of the public which allows them to do it. Its not about explosives, Virginia.
How is it that the BATFE and DOJ can affect our, and other's, hobby? How is it that they can usurp regulations on COMMERCE in explosives in order to control the size of sport rockets launched by law abiding hobbyists? How can the BATFE implement restrictions and conditions on intrastate trade? How can the DOJ publish such a preposterous and inaccurate letter as official opinion? How can codes and regulations developed by a special interest group become law?
I have a passion for geology. I also have arthritis in my ankles and cannot hike anymore. I am slowly being denied access to large tracts of "public" land because of "no motorized vehicle" regulations. People with simlar interests cannot instill them in their kids as children cannot be expected to perform long hikes into wilderness areas. It doesn't matter; the regulatory agencies involved are so concerned with "what ifs" and "possibilities" that legitimate use has taken a backseat to expediency. Blanket restrictions are just so much easier to implement than are well thought out policies. An agency need not justify, nor be held accountable for, exemptions if they simply implement bans. Many of these regs are enacted at the behest of OTHER special interest groups who are organized and vocal.
So, too, with rocketry. Or any other number of hobbies or endeavors which someone else might have issues with. We have gone from imposing penalties upon violators to imposing restraint upon activities in order to prevent violations. And the regulatory agencies will continue to increase regulations and narrow the scope of regulated activities. Because we let them. We let them do it insofar as we elect those who should be watching the watchers. Our problems lie within legislatures, not agencies. Our Congress gives BATFE the power to do what it does. State legislatures adopt NFPA codes as law.
We need to be politically active and vocal. We need to join forces and align with other organizations who are similarly affected by regulation. While there may be few rocketeers, there are many who are affected by unreasonable regulations and would support like-minded political candidates. Even if rocketry cannot afford a dedicated PAC, rocketry AND other hobby organizations might.
I promote rocketry, science, and the value of individual curiosity and experimentation to my students. I have posters which give the definition of Freedom; "The absence of coercion or constraint upon choice or action."
Vote responsibly. Write your elected officials. Educate and involve kids and neighbors. Join other organizations opposing regulations and invite their members to join rocketry. Donate to the NAR/TRA legal fund. Those will be far more effective in the long run than just writing the BATFE, DOT, or NFPA from a fish bowl address.

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This should be in the FAQ.

Gary wrote:
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Gary,
I agree with what you've written, and we need to get the nonsense fixed. Unfortunately, the pendulum moves very slowly, and I doubt if I will see it swing back in my lifetime (but I'm working at it, because I want my kids to be able to be free of such restrictions).
BTW, in regards to the above, please fight fire with fire. If they won't let you back into the wilderness on a motorized vehicle, sue their butts using the Americans With Disabilities Act. The ADA is (IMHO) one of the worst things every to pass any legislature, but one of the ways to ultimately get it overturned is to (over)use it.
David Erbas-White

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I dunno... the ADA is a good thing... just ask a vet.
Programs like that kinda define our civilization...
But spending millions of dollars (in Texas) to increase the size of print on road signs so that the elderly can see them better when they drive...
Don't get me wrong... got nothing against old people... just got a problem with blind people driving.