possibilities for creating a bill to avoid regulation of model rocketry

All I can say is,

I'll take Bill Stine's advice before yours.

Until you attend a few NFPA meetings as a by stander and then as an alternate, you need some experiance.

Your track record with real world experiance in this hobby what ?

Even Jerry knows you need this experiance before you start talking like your an NFPA expert.

Fred , Phil ? come on guys , toss me a bone here !

maybe because >?????? why again ??

AFT

In this case and I also hate to admit it, Shockie is right not Bill Stein.

STINE!!

But I bet the AHJ's have no idea they adopted NFPA-1127.

Nope your primary simply selects you as an alternate.

NFPA meetings are not rocket science. They are Roberts Rules of Order.

My Fire Department did. It's their job to know the codes and enforce them. I tried to weasel out of the 25 foot provision because I didn't think Austin had adopted 1127. But the Chief Engineer showed me the words in NFPA-1. Of course, once we got over that we were able to work out attached garage storage quite nicely because it is specified in 1127. He also showed me the part about Sporting Powder being restricted to 2lbs in a magazine (1 without) in a non-sprinklered building. I didn't write that one down because I was willing to live with that restriction (my 1lb can still has about 12 ounces left after 8 years).

I own you bitch!

OK, that paragraph does have some merit upon review.

I like many others suffered in the late 70s from pink book lawyers & safety code lawyers and left to go fly rockets. Some formed a new club, and had a nfpa 1122 exemption.

later we got AFT and NFPA lawyers that left the competition and joined the new club

so when rocket lawyer sounding stuff comes a spewing I get riled up, but that's rmr .

Now, so what did Bill Stine mean in his speech then ?

seems I've been Shocked. Ouch that hurts !

Yes

You have my permission to blast him. You whould think as much as Shockie whines, he & Jerry would be agreeing on a regular basis. 8-)

Also, you'd better be careful of who you ask to throw you a bone around here. If given an opportunity, Jerry just might take liberties with more than the truth.

what exactly did he say? and in what context? perhaps hes so busy running Quest Aerospace that hes not 100% uptodate on certain NFPA matters..? shockie B)

hey jerry I have a theory about the NFPA codes and why they are basically moot and don't really mean anything.... it goes something like this: IF a tree falls in the forest and nobody is there to see or hear it fall, did it really fall? or better yet, if you launch rockets up and threes no AHJ standing there watching did you really launch a rocket? My point being that at one time I considered sending a form letter survey to every State Fire Marshall in the US....but then I decided it would be better not to wake a sleeping giant, in this case another layer and level of potential bureaucracy to our hobby... So that got me thinking that the NFPA codes are really for the most part as far as rocketry is concerned are an illusionary regulation framework.... i.e. IF the AHJ doesn't know they exist and are responsible for their enforcement, then they don't exist in reality ... Its sorta like the federal government not enforcing federal immigration policy, since they don't really enforce it, there is no immigration laws....

I mean for example, the state fire marshal in Key was not even aware that the NFPA 1122/25/27 was adopted until I pointed out to him that he had allowed adoption of NFPA 1 and its Chapter 65...

So its my position now that the NFPA codes are meaningless as they can and will only be enforced by your State Fire Marshall(assuming he even knows they exist) but what makes the NFPA codes even sillier is that potentially we could get 50 different interpretations of what a specific part of the NFPA code means. I was furious that I could never seem to get the NAR to "interpret" any of the NFPA codes that they had so thoughtfully written for our benefit, when it dawned on me that they are not an enforcement agency and the enforecement agency in this case for the NFPA codes is the State Fire Marshall in each persons respective state!

But if we do not ask the AHJ for an interpretation then there is no interpretation other than what you want it to be....

Besides the AHJ (state Fire Marshals) are so busy with REAL stuff they don't even have time to interpret the NFPA codes even if they wanted to.....

SO everybody can go out and totally ignore the NFPA codes when they fly as they are meaningless in reality...

radical thought huh? shockie B)

Wow, Shocking words.

Shocking words from an obviously very confused person at the time looking for things in the all wrong places.

why that might have gotten you more popular then some architects.

good idea, you came to I guess ;-)

It is totally self-imposed and any majority of the "Sport Rocket Caucus" could easily change the bad language (mandatory consumer cert, reference to ATF, any limitation whatsoever on who can certify so long as the tests are done and the data published in public for all to see.

In industry, plenty of commercial firms "self-certify" with grand success.

It is way too real. It is LAW.

Hence why I have advocated and begged all along to substantially simplify it and make it 1/4 times as many words, and reference outside documents:

Estes (any motor vendor) safety code

Bull.

Jerry

Not true at Tripoli!

Jerry

I suspect that you could do all of that with MR at lower cost.

This, to me, is a main need for HPR. It enables one to do quick off the shelf boilerplate proof of concept type R&D, which can be followed up by developing a lighter more practical implementation for MR.

It is laudable that you want to teach and nurture an interest in science in children. But if you teach children that they will not learn anything from researching books and other resources, you may be doing them a disservice.

Alan

"mostly", perhaps, but not all. And some of the insurance cost increases might be attributed to perceived higher risks with increasing HPR activity. I attribute most of the money paid to Kyte from the NAR General fund, to be mainly for HPR concerns. Had the money not been spent that way, I could have spent on reducing insurance premiums, perhaps by enabling the NAR to be little more self insured, or by lobbying and educating insurance underwriters.

I see no way to separate MR and HPR within the NAR, say by charging higher dues for HPR certified members. Likewise, a launch should be open to whatever the field allows. Perhaps the NAR should offer a low cost non flying membership. This does not mean that such a member cannot fly "lone ranger" style, only that they cannot fly at NAR/TRA launches like insured members. (Admittedly, the NAR already does allow non members to fly at NAR launches.)

Again, this is not a MR Vs. HPR rant. HPR is good for the NAR, and I embrace and defend HPR, even though I am not currently flying HPR. Nevertheless, I feel MR concerns have been left on auto pilot, with the lions share of the associations creative energy, effort, and resources, directed toward HPR. I just think it time to shore up some neglected MR concerns.

Alan

When appling for a LEUP isn't the first thing required that you get local/state permit/license that would involve the State Fire Marshall's.

I don't know how many actual LEUP's there are out there but many say they have them. If so, wouldn't these SFM's have been involve many times over already. Ken

In my case it was Local Fire department, they are the AHJ. No permit required. I asked for a review of my plans, they commented and eventually we worked out an agreeable plan. They stamped my plan "approved" and that was that.

No reason to involved the State when the City or Town (or county or parish) has jurisdiction.

Soon you will have that opportunity.

Choose one:

Highly regulated to a select few.

[Irvine] Omnibus regulated so Fedgov gets what it wants and INCREASED access freedoms are granted in exchange. One more term in the reg change already pending.

Soon you will have that opportunity.

Almost exclusively.

For the chil'len.

Noted.

Jerry