Timing of request for comment

You know, I have often pondered why the BATFE would come out in the middle of an issue that is being contested before the courts, and officially
request comment on those issues. Would it not look like they are trying to make tracks fast to cover their butts? Why get this kind of stigma... better to "go with what you've got" and not rock the boat too much...
Maybe I am a little slow, but it just dawned on me today... it was a "catch 22".
Here, NAR and TRA have been expressing/requesting subjective silence in order to not give the other side any ammunition.
But that was blown to bits by this simple little request, embedded in other related/non-related baffle.
Here's the catch: we the interested parties start submitting all our reasons, basically "fleshing out" most everything our "side" possibly could defend with. Now, with all of these opinions submitted legally and now in their hands, they can (and probably will) flesh out anything that can be used against the issue.
BUT, if we didn't answer, then they have more power to enforce the malformed controls, as we would not show dissent; "we tried to get comment...".
It was a perfect catch 22, and they didn't lose a lot of face doing it.
"What are they going to try to use?"
"I don't know... we don't we ask them... and if they won't talk, then we've got them anyway."
~Duane "maybe I am just up in the night" Phillips.
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Duane:
I've been doing research lately and come to the conclusion that the NPRM is irrelevant. Per federal law, government agencies are required to submit the final rule for NPRM. However, and the big however, is the loophole that was given to agencies that want to do whatever the hell they choose to do without any repercussions.
Here is a link stating a study on government agencies that did not take the legal steps for NPRM and ones that did, according to the APA exemption.
http://www.gao.gov/archive/1998/gg98126.pdf
In particular, pay attention to the conclusions on page 32. Any agency that feels it doesn't need to answer to the people, simply files an APA exemption for cause and they are not required to adhear to the NPRM rules.
In the implementation of the Safe Explosions act. The BATFE takes full advantage of this. Go to this link:
http://www.gpoaccess.gov/fr/index.html From there, just type in "explosives" then click on implementation of safe explosives act.
From there click on "edit" find on page..."APA, then next. It will take you about half way through the text of the safe explosives act to section D. Section D is the screw you card the AFTE played for no accountability. It is the APA Exemption that relieves them from all liability of following guidlines for NPRM's.
It also states though in section E, that they have conducted "a regulatory flexibility analysis of any rule subject to notice and comment rulemaking requirements unless the agency certifies that the rule will not have a significant economic impact on a substantial number of small entities." This section begs the question, where is this certification aka. study? What constitutes significant, is that a dollar amount? a percentage of businesses in the industry suffering? It's a boguss statement and all of us in the rocketry community know this.
In summary the NPRM response that everyone was so gung ho about was wasted time and effort. I'm curious as to why Mr. Kyte didn't point this out to the NAR and Tripoli boards about the APA exemption, since he is supposed to be the top dog in Washington for us.
I hope this clarifies some facts about our situation.
-Boomer

to
"catch
other
could
malformed
we've
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is
the
was
the
that
exemption
you
suffering?
to
So a clause was put in to allow a limited amount of flexibility in rule-making that has been widened via mis-use, and now is the norm.
And in this case they have (mis)used it, so it now becomes an issue of method of interpretation and implementation of policy, upon which they are basing several points of their defense on, by saying they have full right to do so, reguardless of whether the APCP is or is not explosive. So their whole argument winds down to, " we have the right to make and enforce stupid rules if we want to; and the court and the people cannot interferre."
Am I missing anything?
~Duane Phillips.
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No.
--
Jerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA
Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to: snipped-for-privacy@gte.net>
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SO jerry finally understands that the rules are pretty much irrelevant.
They have the "power" therfore they have the say until someone with a bigger stick comes along. Right now the ATF has the biggest stick in this issue.
Chris Taylor http://www.nerys.com /

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The only bigger stick is the law and the constitution. That is why they are not enforcing their illegal rules except to ask morons to volunteer. There have been plenty of volunteers!!!
Jerry
--
Jerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA
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Laws are not bigger sticks. remember laws are only as good as the ones ENFORCING said laws.
so far it looks like congres has no interest in weilding their bigger stick in our favor.
got anything else ?
It does not matter about volunteering. if someone put a gun to your head and said eat this shit. I am not going to order you to I would like you to volunteer too.
what are you going to do ? unless you can "take him" your probably going to eat the shit. why because the consequences should he DECIDE to weild his stick are so far reaching they are just to risky.
same with ATF. if they went after any of us and use terror anywhere i their claim they would DESTROY anyone they went after. No cost them a fine not cost them a small jail sentence they would DESTROY AND RUIN them.
this is simply toomuch a risk so us "volunteers" bow to their bigger stick until it is CLEAR just how big and long that stick it. the risk otherwise is simply not acceptable.
set your self up as a dealer for Aerotech motors jerry and then start selling motors to non leup users at launches. big ones lots of them.
Let's see what happens. Can you afford it if your wrong ? it comes down to that.
Chris Taylor http://www.nerys.com /

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Chris, on this subject, go away.

--
Jerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA
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SO when you have lost and have no more crap to spew you responce is go away ehh
Figures
They still have the bigger stick.
ARE YOU GOING TO TEST ITS REACH.
Never did answer that.
Chris Taylor http://www.nerys.com /

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I tested it and won. I cited the law and each time they came back with "I wish you would do this other thing", I replied by citing the law.
Just the facts ma'am.
Jerry
--
Jerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA
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Prove it. again your say so is not sufficient.
DO you have a LEUP ?
HOW have you tested that reach exactly.
Chris Taylor http://www.nerys.com /

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bigger
If you *believe* they have the bigger stick, then *you* are ruled by the bigger stick.
Some of us *believe* that truth and founding principles of this nation are bigger sticks, even if it takes time. The problem lies in convincing enough of *you* out there that this is true, and should be upheld.
From what I see, I don't think Jerry has come round to your way of looking at it...
Maybe now _you_ understand the difference.
That is the ATF's position... that doesn't make them right.
~Duane Phillips.
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Bank Robbers invade a bank 3 of them.
HELL lets say ONE bank robber with an UZI
your all (50 of you) one one side of the room he is on the other side of the room.
one of you says lets get him he can not get us all.
Every wonder why no one moves even the guy who made the statement ?
because NO ONE wants to be the one he DOES get.
it not like a knife or fist fight where you got a reasonable chance of surviving. if the uzi guy gets you your almost certaintly DEAD.
Hence no one moves.
Same thing here. call it what you want but I call it self preservation.
With the current terror fear laiden enviroment the ATF has an UZI.
are you going to stand up in front of it and see what happens ?
I donot think so.
the risk is simply too high. SURE if enough of us stood up we could weild a bigger stick than they have but our ENTIRE HOBBY POPULATION is not big enough for that.
you need tens of thousands of people to make that work. and they need to be CLOSE. close enough that they all can not be arested easily.
we need voice and we simply do not have it.
Chris Taylor http://www.nerys.com /

issue.
enough
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I often wonder what goes on inside that brain of yours. Then on the few occasions I have interfaced with you and learned of some of your idiosyncracies, it just scares me, and I stop thinking about it.
Jerry

--
Jerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA
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so you leave a sly insult laced with a hint of being nice to cover it up and completely avoid the point and focus of the message.
Figures
Answer the question. the uzi is looking at you. would you step forward.
we all know the answer but you will not say it or you will beat around the bush on it. try to redirect it or inject some crap to twist it. but we all know the answer. its NO.
Chris Taylor http://www.nerys.com /

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I really do see that you see it that way. Consider for a moment the remote possibility it was not an "insult" but a NEUTRAL statement.
An observation.
One man's opinion based on first hand contact.
I would say "act accordingly" but one cannot expect a "normal reaction" from Chris taylor. So I will tell you how I would expect a "normal person" to act.
Listen.
Hear the mesage not merely the words.
Consider the remote possibility somebody other than you is right 100% of the time.
Consider the possibility that if the other person is right in this particular circumstance you could learn something.
Then try to learn something. Not how to react and respond more vigerously to the perceived attack, no. Learn that given you are just a bit wacky that your comments might possibly be misplaced. Try this.
For about a week when you reply to a post, read it 3 times before hitting send. Each time you read it reread the item you are replying to. Ask yourself this simple question. "What was this guy really thinking and saying with this post?"
Then reply to HIS point, not some recalculaton in your opinion of what point you think or wish he was making.
Try it, you'll like it.
Jerry
The rocket newsgroup that Mikey likes!

--
Jerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA
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tough.
here is the way I work. and its not negotiable or discussable.
If I have a thought that I see as fact I will take it as fact till shown otherwise.
YOUR SAY SO does not qualify as being shown otherwise.
You spew crap and want me to take it at face value when it slaps in the face of the "reality" that appears obvious right in front of me.
When you can provide verifyable FACTS that dispute my thoughts THEN and ONLY THEN will I consider altering my thoughts.
but NEVER simply at someone's say so.
YOU expect me to take it as YOUR say so and nothing else (since you have given absolutely positively nothing else)
you just keep spouting CMF 55.1 or whatever its called yet a source HIGHER IN THE FACT CHAIN than you (NAMELY ATF) has said it does not apply.
so until someone higher on the chain tells the ATF that YES it does apply I have to take THEIR word over YOURS since THEY can put me in jail. YOU can not.
oh and NO ONE is 100% right. period.
Chris Taylor http://www.nerys.com /

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Perfect. Then we are done!
--
Jerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA
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perfect. you still have not even attempted to acknowledge.
I now know what people mean when they describe you. Typical and Predictable.
Chris Taylor http://www.nerys.com /

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I acknowledged and accepted your position is unchangeable. I can live with that. When someone actually agrees with you, learn to live with it gracefully :)
*plonk*
Jerry

--
Jerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA
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