Re: The AT auction

has licenses

ASSOCIATION!!!!

Yes, as long as the AHJ in the location of use accepts them.

Yes, as long as it tests in conformance to NFPA 1122 and NFPA 1125 and the AHJ in the location of use accepts it.

It's not self-serving if AHJs recognize it.

Of course, that will take a lot of work, and will mean that you will have to demonstrate high standards of performance, consistency, and competency over the long haul. Just what NAR has done, for years.

So show everyone how to do it better.

--tc

take

national

the industry

...

Look, I've been trying to describe how we got here, why "here" looks the way it does, and what leeway we may have to improve things.

I have tried to be civil.

I have read WAY more than I have posted, and I have tried to understand your point of view, and especially the core of it. But it isn't a discussion any more.

In just one night you call NAR folks janitors and Jerry, not to be outdone, compares NAR practices to nazi death camps.

Enough is enough. I can't just can't continue this discussion; it isn't helpful.

Sorry.

--tc

I guess what I do not understand, is you want the clubs to do what is not in the clubs best interest. I guess the solution would be to write the NFPA and work on changing the NFPA rules, or ask the Gov set up a certifying authority other than the clubs. I bet the fees would be greater, and you would still have to renew the certs... The clubs are set up to take care of, and service their members, as any club is.

For all those saying it would take 5 years to be accepted by the AHJ to be a recognized organization, I do not agree... How many of the AHJ even know who the clubs are? IMHO charter a national org, get letter head, and you HAVE met the requirements. Has any one to date been arrested or fined for not having a cert? NO, you just can not fly at a NAR or TRA launch. Their are no certs in place at Frank's launches, just fly what you bring. I'm challenging you Jerry to start your own club, your own cert process, and fly under your rules! Start shipping nation wide! TRA did it, your next!

Erik Gates

well then your argument should be with the "mindless authorities" not the NAR/TRA..... next you will try and argue its the fault and resposibility of the NAR/TRA that the mindless authorities only curremtly recognize the NAR/TRA.... dohhhh

shockie B)

What Ray said.. The true mosaic..

Fred

Did you just have an epiphany, jerry?

The reason they have NO user or motor cert requirements is because when you make your own motors for your own personal use, no user or motor cert requirements are required.... user cerst and motor certs are only required in the world of model and high power rocketry not in the wolrd of Amateur Rocketry..... And this is the central tenet of the AR argument: they also want no user or motor cerst for model and high power rocketry either.....and No NFPA etc.....

shockie B)

Fred agreeing with Ray over and over is telling indeed.

Jerry

NAR and TRA authored the language that made reference to NAR/TRA.

Yep.

That is an abusively extreme comment.

Some HPR users want fewer HPR rules similar to AR and prior successful HPR practice.

Jerry

and what might those HPR rules they want be for example? shockie B)

either.....and

HPR user certifications are skills based certification. In addition to my NAR HPR certification, I carry a lot of other skills based certifications:

driver's license licenses to practice in the securities business pilot's license.

Each one of those has, in varying forms, a requirement to demonstrate to the certifying authority that the skill I showed them once before, I can continue to demonstrate with a reasonable level of proficency.

For the driver's license, that's the State of Illinois' right to re-test me, depending on circumstance, and, if nothing else, to ask me every 5 years to fill out or correct a form, stand in line for an hour, have my picture taken and pay them a fee.

For the securities business, I'm required to take continuing education courses, and get audited every 5 years or so on the regulations. Here, my firm pays the fees to the National Association of Securities Dealers annually.

For my pilot's license, it's to get poked and proded by a doctor every two years, and demonstrate to a certified flight instructor every two years I know how to fly the plane and operate in the airspace.

If you accept the premise that the NAR's user certs are skills based, like these certs are, then some form of organizational oversight seems rational and reasonable to me.

I guess we could set up some form of retesting, but the operating premise behind current policy is that, having demonstrated the skill, retention of your membership is indication of sufficent interest and involvment to retain the certification.

If you don't buy into the general premise I've outlined here, I don't think there's much more productive discussion we can have.

If you think the NAR should change the way we ask people to demonstrate the requirement on an ongoing basis, and assuming you'e an NAR member, you can either start a discussion offline with our Sport Services Committee about the issue, or you can directly petition the NAR Board to change the policy. We'll be meeting prior to NARAM at the end of July.

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Mark B. Bundick mbundick - at - earthlink - dot - net NAR President www - dot - nar - dot - org

"A dark night in a city that knows how to keep its secrets, but high above the quiet streets on the twelfth floor of the Acme Building, one man is still trying to find the answers to life's persistent questions. Guy Noir, Private Eye."

Tough. You can start from scratch just like NAR and TRA did. Maybe then you'd appreciate what it really takes to get where we are today -- but I doubt you're that smart.

You don't get a free ride on our efforts, leech.

Gosh, without you to save us? Hmm, I guess rocketry would just go on thriving the way it has for all the decades prior to your whiny arrival.

So in other words, instead of saying hmmm, good proposal,lets reduce the consumer cert rules a bit to increase participation, you are justifying it as hard as you can.

Not invented here.

Jerry

Why don't I get to ride MY OWN efforts?

Hmmmm?

Shorter scientifically set offset distances.

Permanant motor certs.

Permanant or extended user certs.

Not enforcing for BOTH DOT and ATF.

either.....and

And since you're throwing it around like it means something what -exactly- does the abbreviation NFPA stand for?

Joel. phx

What efforts would those be?

TRA/NAR derailed a broad exemption for rocketry that would have completely eliminated the "ATR requirement" for a LEUP at any weight, adn encouraged member support of the Hatch-Kohl substitute bill that requires a LEUP for even a single notor containing more than 0.9 lbs of APCP

thats what

(ahem!)

yes, it does

here's the NAR's at

"By submitting this form, I pledge to conduct all my sport rocketry activities in compliance with the NAR Model Rocket Safety Code and the NAR High Power Safety Code."

and here's TRA's from

"I agree to pursue my advanced rocketry activities in conformance with the Association's By-laws and Safety Code ..."

TRA has marked ignorance of, or disregard for, how the nonprofit and IRS regulations apply to the organizations policies and operations, not to mention its entrenched corruption

that attitude on the part of members is the single largest factor contributing to its demise

ibid

ibid

perhaps because he cares about more than just himself, Ray

I know, thats a stretch for a TRA apologist

- iz