Simple timer schematics?

That might be different. But you didn'tsay that.

Also we are only talking federal here not state.

Perhaps you can cite the reg you are relying on for this conclusion and I can add it to my site of cites.

Add value not noice. Don't merely post your conclusions, post the data leading to your conclusions so others can duplicate your results (as I have) and benefit from it.

So you can do a SHOW not for pay and it is still considered not for commerce?

So I could say transfer a billion rocket motors to people and have them make donations to my non-profit?

Cite. Tripoli disagrees of course but that only strengthens your claim.

Thank you.

Sonds like a plan if you ask me! :)

-dave w

That would be cool!

Ok, let's skip the flashpowder portion here for a minute. BP, despite being manufactured for your own recreational use, is only exempt for use in FIREARMS (see subpart H, part B on

Even if the BP was exempt for any use, see that little note on destructive devices at the end of the paragraph. Fireworks fall into the defined categories.

thus, making you need a license/permit for the manufacture (Even if for personal use, stays in state, yada yada yada....) of fireworks

Since when is PGI a regulatory agency?

Now i am getting too lazy to look up another cite, but electric matches are required to be in a magazine...

but there is this, too-

also, somewhere, the ATF has stated even if you are exempt from licensing requirements (IE BP), you still need a mag....

Now having said this, i think i'm done wasting my time on this one...

That may not have been clear in the post, but no where has anyone talked about selling of produced objects. We were discussing timers and the BATFE requirements for ematches. Producing your own for your own use does not make you a manufacturer. State an local laws could obviously apply. I'm not suggesting you get into trouble by following Skyligher's ematch formula (though one of which is not flash) when producing ematches for your own use. Even if you are only mixing 2-6g of flash and destroying the rest. Please drive 55 in 55 zones and come to a full and complete stop at stop signs. Then again, keep in mind that state and local laws also apply to APCP and they may not have any exemption.

Absolutely correct. Apologies if that wasn't clear. Also do not mix things if you cannot be absolutely safe about it. Flash, even mixed as described, is not something to have an accident with (I'll not post that ugly graphics link, but I'm sure someone will). For $1.50 each and $100 LEUP and $200 magazine, it is well worth purchasing reliable, commercial ematches.

The orange book definition of 'manufacturer', the Orange book, and comments by Michael S. Swisher VP-Publications/PGI on rec.pyrotechnics. As I clearly posted "PGI Bulletin No. 119". You could join and purchase that back issue to post on your site. A quote from a simple deja search: "Please note this is the official word from BATFE, see the PGI Bulletin article in which Gene Baker has made this quite clear, as cited here previously on more than one occasion, to wit:

"A hobbyist, i.e., someone not using or manufacturing fireworks in furtherance of a commercial activity, does not require a license or permit. He must, however, store his 1.3 items in a magazine meeeting ATF standards. Upon request, an ATF inspector will inspect your unlicensed magazine, and, if it meets his criteria, provide you with a letter to that effect." ["ATF Answers your Questions," PGI Bulletin No. 119 (May 2000), pp. 42-44]."

Orange Book Q&A "36. When is a manufacturer's license required? A manufacturer?s license is needed only by persons engaged in the business of manufacturing explosive materials for sale, distribution, or for business use. For example, persons engaged in the business of providing a blasting service using explosives of their own manufacture would be required to have a manufacturer?s license. Persons who manufacture explosives for their personal, non-business use would not need a manufacturer?s license. [27 CFR 55.11: definition of ?manufacturer?, 55.41]"

And of much less importance, the retailer of materials for fireworks, links to old ATF statements:

You mean where I posted "PGI Bulletin No. 119". Sorry, I should have said "join and purchase the back issue of PGI Bulletin No. 119 where the ATF makes a statement regarding the licensing of homemade fireworks for your personal use."

There's commerce if you're not being paid?

You would need to run that by the IRS (I'll be happy to call on your behalf) but I would not put myself in a position where accepting money in any form would be a requirement for entrance to a demonstration (no soda sales, parking fees, donations box, canned food for charity,...).

Tripoli does not disagree otherwise they would (rightly so) require an LEUP or LEMP to do EX.

I hope I've answered your questions. I trust you can find the atf web page. Further inquiries can be directed to Gene Baker of the ATF as Mr Swisher suggested to me.

Joel. phx

[note to self, stay off deja until JI filtering can be determined]

The problem I am having is you are not using the legal language. If you substitute "manufacturer" for "in commerce" I am with you.

The problem with the entire debate/conversation/arguement it is a discussion of minute details that each matter - a lot.

You are NOT a manufacturer if you make it for your own (personal) use. That's why I suggested talking to fireworks people who do that all the time. A manufacturer is one who has a profit motive and reading the letter to the PGI from the BATFE would have cleared that up. Other links have been posted in another response in this thread.

Few years till that law degree? From YOUR link: "The term ''destructive device'' shall not include any device which is neither designed nor redesigned for use as a weapon; "

Blackpowder on it's own is not a 'device' and a firework is "not designed for use as a weapon".

So the letter from the BATF in bulletin 119 has no meaning. The firework folk have to deal with this, which is why they might know more than you. If there is a question, don't ask it here, write the agent in the bulletin.

Yes, type4(5?). Much easier to construct than type 1.

Joel. phx

That is correct.

Yes, it certainly was a waste.

Jerry, Nowhere in this pile of stuff that you posted is there an admission on your part that the exemption at 27 CFR 55.141(a)(7)(v) did not exempt ALL Class C explosives and that you were incorrect in stating that it did.

I believe I stated it used to per your link.

27 CFR 55.141(a)(7) The importation and distribution of fireworks classified as Class C explosives and generally known as "common fireworks", and other Class C explosives, as described by U.S. Department of Transportation regulations in 49 CFR 173.100 (p), (r), (t), (u) and (x)."

Thanks for your site and cite BTW.

Joel, you really have no idea how much I'd love to agree with you on this topic. Really, I would. Maybe, however, you should stop listening to individual agents and get either 1. A higher up opinion or 2. Read the law. Once again, from the orange book- subpart B, Definitions

Manufacturer- Any person engaged in the business or manufacturing explosive materials for purposes of sale or distribution (so far, looks like your right, then they go on to say) OR FOR HIS OWN USE.

Tell me, without citing some random letter from some random agent from the past, how, making flash powder, BP, or any of this other crap, for your own use disqualifies you as a manufacturer from the BATF's definition of it.

there is a distinction for those who manufacture for their own use, but the conditions for permitting, storage and record keeping are the same as a permitee.

"Manufacturer-limited. Any person engaged in the business of manufacturing explosive materials for his own use and not for sale or distribution."

the fee is five dollars, it is non-renewable, and good for only 30 days

of course, this is applicable to "manufacturers" of explosive materials only

- iz

Ben wrote:

I'm really sorry you feel that the Q&A of the orange book don't qualify as authoritative statements.

For everyone else, please review question 36 of the ATF's orange book where it clearly spells out that "ones own use" clearly spells out someone manufacturing explosives, using it to make a profit.

58, question 36

"36. When is a manufacturer's license required? A manufacturer's license is needed only by persons engaged in the business of manufacturing explosive materials for sale, distribution, or for business use. For example, persons engaged in the business of providing a blasting service using explosives of their own manufacture would be required to have a manufacturer's license. Persons who manufacture explosives for their personal, non-business use would not need a manufacturer's license. [27 CFR 55.11: definition of "manufacturer", 55.41]"

Flash, Black powder and "all that other crap" are EXPLOSIVES. If you are not making them to profit with, you are NOT a manufacturer. If that isn't clear, then one should contact the inspector I refered to earlier and stop generating FUD on this group.

Joel. phx

I will add this to my cites page sometime.

Storage of explosives is the same for non-licensed.

Yes, any business making explosives to sell or use themselves to make money.

Joel. phx

"Persons who manufacture explosives for their personal, non-business use would not need a manufacturer's license. [27 CFR 55.11: definition of "manufacturer", 55.41]""