Give me a friggin' break. I fought in Viet Nam '68-'69 in the Marine Corps and I saw first hand what our enemies did on a regular basis. Mai Lai was a very bad thing for sure but I never heard of any NVA officer (or soldier) or Viet Cong being brought up on charges for battlefield crimes/actions! Atrocity is how the enemies of this country fight and we take extraordinary measures to not be like them. We are not perfect and we don't, as a rule, act like our foes. But then, our soldiers/Marines don't become suicide bombers after being wounded. I do not fault the actions of the young Marine.
Will you change your opinion if the Marine is found to be guilty?
And don't rely on the "I saw..." argument. Some of us have family who fought on different sides in various wars. Me, for instance.
From the stories I have heard (covering combat in Russia (German), Europe (German), the Middle East (both) and the Pacific (Australian), _both_ sides did some very unpleasant things. One summed it up with the throw away line, "Remember, it's the winning side who writes the histories."
"Gary R. Schmidt" wrote in news:t6kpd.2200$ snipped-for-privacy@nasal.pacific.net.au:
Even so, it was considered an aberration and not standard practice endorsed and encouraged by the US government. And people were held to account. How many NVA and VC butchers were helld to account?
What irks me and what minimizes my respect for your argument is the inability to distinguish good guys from bad guys. In Germany the atrocties were instigated by and rewarded by the state. Any events of questionable legality committed by US, UK or Australian troops were at best situational and in the case of the Japanese the result of fighting people as systematically ruthless as terrorists today.
If you cannot distinguish between us and them that says more about you and your worldview than us.
No, I will not. The Marine acted on instinct garnered from days of fighting in which fellow Marines were killed and/or wounded for doing that which you say he should have done. He only did what his experiences told him was the safe thing to protect himself and others. What's the old saying, "I'd rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6." If he is judged to be guilty of "whatever" then so be it.
I much prefer to make judgments from what I have seen than what I have heard. Many times this is just not possible and we are forced to listen to an account of events based on statements. We are not forced to agree with the statements. We then weigh and take into account any physical/circumstancial evidence supporting our opinion.
It sounds to me that you have no personal experience of having fought in a war. If that is the case, count yourself fortunate for you have been spared the horror that war is. You possibly haven't seen your friends killed and wounded in the most violent of ways or seen the same done to an enemy. Since I have "been there" , I choose to stand by this Marine. This, in my mind, makes my "I saw" argument all the more valid.
Very true. One can read some very interesting things....some true and some not true. You are free to make up your own mind based on what you choose to believe.
*The* definition of 'perfidy' in the Geneva Conventions:
"perfidy
It is prohibited to pretend to surrender, without an actual intention to do so. (Protocol I, Art. 37, Sec. 1)
Pretending to seek a cease-fire with the intent to betray the confidence in order to kill, injure or capture an adversary is perfidy and is prohibited. (Protocol I, Art. 37, Sec. 1a)"
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The same definition is given for 'treachery', BTW...
As soon as I noticed this trhead I checked the petition , there are
244466 people who signed that petition now , well I shall say I feel ashamed for each of them and each of them shall fell deeply ashamed of themself. I don't know where we are heading but this is truly the lowest point I saw so far. If you want to be distinguished from what you call "bad guys" then don't act or justify similar acts just because it was your side this time. Also most of you try to say it is just one guy that overreacted after weeks of stress , but from my point of view and those signatures just make it more evident it is the current attitude of a lot of Us citizen to have the hands "free" even the govermanent behave in the same way as in Guantanamo or with the abu graib jail I think all of you who signed that petition shall think trice at what you did Paolo
Actually, the count should be 244,467 but, since I am an active duty military officer, it would be inappropriate for me to do so. that, however, dies not preclude my voicing total support for this Marine on a personal and individual level. You should feel ashamed of yourself for jumping to a conclusion without knowing all the facts related to it. Clearly, you have never seen the elephant or you would understand the situation more clearly.
Actually, your comment, obviously an prejudgement without all the facts is lower by a lot.
That's a very lofty pronouncement, Paolo. Clearly one made in the vacuum of lack of (or misunderstanding of) the overall situation. If you knew the background, you would not, rationally be able to say or justify you "similar situation" pronouncement.
I'm not saying that at all. I don't believe there was any overreaction at all. You've been watching too much al Jaziera. In the circumstances surrounding this incident, I believe he acted justifiably under the laws of armed conflict and the rules of engagement.
I don't seem to get the connection between Fallujah and Guantanimo. Abu Guhraib was an unfortunate incident by a couple ignorant and, perhaps intellectually inferior people abusing prisoners who had been captured, disarmed, and incarcerated. What happened in Fallujah was just ablit
180degrees from that; there is no way to make a comparison in any way at all.
Paolo; I've thought many times about what happened there. I've read the intelligence messages and read the after-action reports form this incident and from those that preceeded this. I wish in all my heart that I could sign the petition and I would do so in a heartbeat. However,
I wouldn't expect you to understand, nor, quite honestly, does it matter at this point. The only ones who need to understand are those who are conducting the investigation. How about just waiting for this to run its course and see where it goes and what information comes out once it's over before jumping up on your soap box.
-- -- -- -- -- "We sleep safe in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would do us harm." George Orwell
AM> Dave Fleming wrote: >> On 19 Nov 2004 12:59:25 GMT, snipped-for-privacy@aol.comspamless (The Old >> Timer) >> wrote: >>
AM> BIG difference here. The US soldiers are as a whole following AM> the geneva conventions. The insurgents they are presently AM> fighting are not, and have ALREADY DONE what you describe AM> happen to US troops !!!!!!!!!!!!!
AM> Why is it that you side with the bad guys ?
AM> And why are you not just as mad, if not moreso about the AM> french soldiers that opened fire on unarmed civillians ?
I think the Geneva convention was agreed to exactly in order to avoid people doing exaclty what they please, without any justification needed. Following 'on the whole' and allowing exceptions is not on. We don't need to condemn the entire US for the stupidity of one person, but we should not let it pass lest it provide an example for others.
AM> -- Only A Gentleman Can Insult Me And A True Gentleman Never AM> Will
Bill> Dave Fleming wrote: >> If you accept this, then you accept that any US soldier who is >> wounded can then be shot in cold blood by an opponent as he may >> still pose a danger. >> >> Remember that.
Bill> I remember it well, Dave.
Bill> Here's a news flash for you. What the hell do you think Bill> happens when the terrorist/insurgents come across a wounded Bill> US Serviceman or if they were to capture one alive. The Bill> image of the butchered Marine sniper team of a month or so Bill> ago is still very sharp in my mind. The beheading of Bill> another who was captured earlier is equally sharp.
The seervicemen are going through a hell which they will probably never forget.
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