FS595 and Olive Drab

Well...not about "scale effect"...but have you tried simply mixing yellow+black, or orange+black? That way, you can make the olive drab that YOU want.

Greg's suggestion of mixing yellow and black is on the mark. Las year (or so ) there was a considerable in depth discussion about this very subject, along with *correct* interior greens. The best explanation came from, whom I suppose, was the horses mouth with this:

-- Chuck Ryan snipped-for-privacy@REMOVEearthlink.net Springfield OH "

I can't take credit for the suggestion, as I believe it was Mr. Zaloga himself, in a recent article in "Military Modelling", who put the suggestion in my mind.

These mixes are originally from WWII era US Army and USAAF documents. I don't have them readily to hand but I do remember the mixes.

Interior green is ten parts zinc chromate (which is yellow with a slight green tinge), one part lampblack paste, one ounce (by weight) powdered aluminum (may substitute once liquid ounce white or light grey paint or omit altogether).

Olive drab >

That's one ounce by weight aluminum powder per gallon of paint.

ah ha, I knew someone would have the correct mixture. I was running on (old) memory :-)

Well the olive drab *I* want is 3412 as defined by TT-595, or FS34087 as defined by FS595 (unamended). and I can't just make that by mixing ochre and black, out of the blue, so to speak. Therefore my *first* question.

I'll gladly admit that I am on a silly quest, and I need help. I just think answers to my questions might be a way to help me get on with my life. :-)

-Lasse

Crud! The color x4087 is not even in MY "fan deck".....

Is this the "brownish" shade? If so, that is why I recommended "orange+black". I have used this formula to mix some "khaki-ish" uniform colols on figures. It comes very close....

As you probably have FS595B, that comes as no surprise...

I once, long ago, saw TT-595 on eBay, but at that time I just couldn't afford it. :-(

As to what shade it is - how should *I* know? As I don't have the standard, I have never *seen* it! As I probably can't _get_ the old standard, I perhaps never *will* see it, unless someone confirms that

-Lasse

Okay...after "googling", I find that 34087 is the "brownish" shade of OD. Think of it as a dark khaki-ish color, as in USArmy uniforms of WWII (envision the coats on the Class A uniform). This color can be reproduced by orange+black, and then "tweaked" to suit your taste.

Can't you sue your government for that, considering they are responsible for the whole mess?

:-)

-Lasse

I'll reiterate what a scientist from NIST told me a few years ago - that the GSA paint standards (despite their supposed technical specs) are unscientific and somewhat arbitrary. At one point NIST wanted to set the paint standards but GSA resisted.

The perfect proof of this is to compare any 14087 to its corresponding

On a real aircraft if you took flat OD 34087 and coated it with wax and polished it to a high sheen it would still look much lighter than gloss OD 14087.

John Hairell ( snipped-for-privacy@erols.com)

The fact that they are *standards*, _despite_ being unscientific and arbitrary, is what I find makes them so interesting. I think I said earlier in this thread that at least I don't collect stamps. Nonetheless, I can readily identify with the stamp collector who is especially interested in stamps that are erroneously or deliberately printed in an odd colour, or otherwise deviate from the norm. Or Matchbox toy car collectors, who care about whether the plastic the wheels are made of is gray or black. You can only tell what is a (more or less rare) deviation, and why, if you *know* what the norm is supposed to be.

Zaloga said it very succinctly in the article I referred to earlier: "I am not a stickler for exact paint matching, but modest variations in wartime paint is no excuse for modellers to use any old green or brown shade of paint they have on the shelf."

I think it is important to know what it is these variations are variations *of*. Only then does it makes sense to talk about faded paint, paint variations between component manufacturers (such as those often seen on the vertical stabilizer of C-47's), and deliberate alterations performed by units (darkening paint on parade vehicles, applying gloss, whatever).

I won't go into scale effect, because frankly I don't believe in it, and I think I have good arguments against it, some of which I have presented to rms long ago.

Perfection being always unattainable doesn't mean we should not seek to achieve it.

-Lasse

'Perfect' is the enemy of 'good enough'..... ;)

"You never know what is enough unless you know what is more than enough."

"The crow wish'd every thing was black, the owl, that every thing was white." [And the lazy modeller, that every thing was some shade present in his already too large collection of Humbrol enamels. -LHP]

"Truth can never be told so as to be understood, and not be believ'd." (W. Blake, _Proverbs of Hell_)

-Lasse

It has to give its permission first. Catch 22, anyone?

GSA paint standards (despite their supposed technical specs) are unscientific and somewhat arbitrary. The perfect proof of this is to compare any 14087 to its corresponding 34087 in any version of FS595 - one is NOT just a glossy version of the other. There are significant color and darkness differences between the gloss and flat versions, and OD isn't the only place where this happens. On a real aircraft if you took flat OD 34087 and coated it with wax and polished it to a high sheen it would still look much lighter than gloss OD

Yeah, that was a smart move - sending aviation crews to Vietnam to fly aircraft with bright, glossy markings, and having the people wear bright, colored patches on their uniforms. The 1st Cav "horseblanket" patch makes an especially good target.

Great posting, and it just goes to prove what I was saying, that GSA's "system" is not exactly systematic. As far as paint companies, even several companies which formulate and sell paint to military vehicle restorers have been selling modern 34087 as "WWII OD".

I've had two copies of the (later) 595a chip book and there are differences between each one, especially for the greens, i.e. GSA's paint chips also vary somewhat between paint batches.

Linear predecessor bureaucratically but not visually....

What I'd like to see is a chip of FS X34087.

John Hairell ( snipped-for-privacy@erols.com)