OT feel sorry for the US F1 specs

Darn shame. I feel for the fans who made the long trip there just to watch what essentially is a test session for the running teams. I, for one, will continue being a fan of F1. At least I can watch RACING at the Portland round of Champ cars today!

"Julian 'Penny for the guy' Hales" wrote in message news:oVite.1473$ snipped-for-privacy@fe1.news.blueyonder.co.uk...

I hope Max is happy with his new tire rules, first Kimi's last lap retirement and now this. I have been watching this sport for over 20 years, and this the biggest f*ck up I have ever seen. Having the most advanced race cars in the world running on tires that cant be changed, regardless of consequences is a joke. Hope Max understands that the average American race fan who is not yet familiar with how the sport works is never going to lay down money to attend another race. What a sad day for racing.

I'm a US F1 fan and agree that this a sad day for F1 racing in the US. However, I disagree this has anything to do with the new tire rule. Michelin says their tires would only last 10 laps. Since Indy is nominally a two-stopper, the tires would have to last about 25 laps even under the old rules, so they wouldn't have lasted even if nothing had changed. As far as Kimi's retirement, that risk decision was made by the team. They could have brought Kimi in to change the flat-spotted tire with no FIA penalty, because the tire was obviously unsafe. Kimi and McLaren made the choice to drive on. That was their choice, not the FIAs, and they paid the consequences.

For the record, teams are allowed to change tires that are unsafe. Michelin could have probably stopped four times and changed out the right rear each time, most likely without penalty. But since you can't fuel during a tire stop, that meant that the teams would have had to stop a total of six times, and surely would have lost. Apparently they chose to not play rather than lose.

Given all of the things that have happened at Indy in the short time that the race has been held here, including JPM's black flag after running the majority of the race for a start violation, F1 is probably done at Indy.

Dave

What I always liked about F1 (back when I followed it) were the Grand(e) Prix races which were conducted over a closed course on otherwise public roads...something about having to negotiate real roads FAST (and without bumping, lest you launch your butt skyward...) made both the cars and the drivers "real racers", IMO.

Give me that to watch - or at least something with more challenge in the turns than a "squared-oval"...I have to agree with you. I'll pass on it.

I agree with you for the most part, but I think it's debatable whether the tire would have been deemed unsafe. It certainly wouldn't have been found unsafe after it was flat spotted the first time and probably not after the second time. Maybe not at all right up to the point of it's failure. Once flat spotted, the chances of it re-occuring grows exponentially. So far, if I'm not mistaken, it is uncharted territory because the only changes have occured with catastrophic failures.

Dan

consequences.

I think McLaren could have made the case the tire was unsafe. The onboard and external camera shots clearly showed the excessive vibration on the right front tire. It looked pretty obvious that the suspension was shaking around pretty badly. Plus, I'm sure McLaren had some sort of telemetry showing the loads on the suspension. I think everyone knew the suspension or tire would eventually fail at some point, just no one knew if he could get it to the end of the race before it happened. Just my two cents.

Dave

I live about two miles by way the bird flies from the Indianapolis Motor Speedway, and I know one thing about American race fans: Once you lose them, they are gone. Look at what happened after IRL and CHAMP Cars had their spat. A lot of "Indy Car" fans are now NASCAR fans, and have no intentions on returning until the leagues get over it. The city of Indianapolis and her citizens have tried to roll out the red carpet for all the foreign visitors for the race and now this. I don't know a lot about F1, but I don't understand how the sport with the "most sophisticated cars in the world" doesn't have tires that can turn a 9 degree banked curve that is .25 miles long. IRL cars negotiate these turns at 200 MPH some times two abreast. Were the tires just defective or was it a problem on certain cars (teams) maybe with their setups? We get only marginal coverage in Indy for the local races (we host 3) that is actually about the race and not traffic, weather, or the fluff that the stations throw out so I did not here about the tire issue until the start of the race. I'm not trying to start any arguments but from the sounds of it, the speedway is not at fault for the incident ( though they will probably lose future races ).

well that's my opinion anyway.

I agree with you completely, but my point is when would it have been deemed unsafe? It all seems too subjective. Had McLaren taken the chance and pulled the tire, there was the possibility Whiting could have disagreed despite the evidence. It is absurd to risk lives for the cost of a few set of tires. One thing that has become evident to me in light of the failures is the much improved tire tethers. They seem to be working much better now.

Dan

F1 cars have a much greater downforce, much greater heat and force.

I think the Michelin Man better watch his back. He might get severely deflated. ;)

Bill Banaszak, MFE

Well Rufus, we can all watch the plastic imitation 'stock' cars run around dressed up like billboards with NA$CAR. Yeah, right.

Bill Banaszak, MFE

Sometimes I think the problem of having to many rules that it encourages mega testing and refinement which cost big dollars as back in days past innovation played a much bigger part. ( 6 wheelers, ground effects , aerofoils etc) . I think maybe innovation gives the smaller budget teams a chance to compete with the big guys and sure adds a lot of interest. I hope someone can steer it all back in the right direction as it is the most international series for motorsport fans we have. I wonder if we will see Trumpeter F1 kitsnow there is a Chinese GP, US GP seemed a bit of a non event to me, Can't see many fans who payed the money leaving with a smile on their faces

Regards JimboD

My biggest problem with F-1 these days is the fact that it's like watching a parade. After the start, once the initial fight for position at the first corner is over, it's a line of cars going REALLY fast around a twisty-turny course. FIA (or whoever is responsible for track design and layout) seems to take great pride in the fact that they've built courses on which you can't pass! I suppose this is all in the name of safety. I pretty much stopped watching F-1 after Senna died. Just ain't the same amount of fun as when Lauda, Prost, Senna, et al were running. Just My $.02.

Don McIntyre Clarksville, TN

If it's a choice between watching a race with cars that shatter into a million pieces if they're sneezed on, like F1, IRL, and CART. I'll watch NASCAR, even though there's not much stock about the cars in Nascar anymore.

I miss the Touring car races on Speed. Like Nascar oughta be.

The point that is being missed regarding Kimi's accident at the 'Ring, is that McLaren could have stopped and changed the tyre (as it would have been a safety issue) but in doing so they would have lost the lead to Alonso anyway, they Kimi & McLaren elected to stay out and finish ahead of alonso, but unfortunately the race was 1 lap too long.

I personally hate the 1 set of tyres ruling, if F1 is the pinnacle of motorsport then there should be no limits to performance. IMHO the best racing F1 ever had was in the early to mid 80's before refuelling and when making a pitstop lost you the race, there were multiple teams capable of winning, over the '82 & '83 seasons there were wins for Mclaren, Williams, Lotus, Renault, Ferrari, Tyrrell & Brabham.

Get rid of the driver aids, bring back a foot clutch and stick shift gearbox, let the driver make a difference, it might bring a lot of disillusioned spectators back to the sport.

I wonder if Sunday 19th June 2005 wasn't just a bad day for F1 in the US but could be the beginning of the end of F1 as we know it, with the FIA proving how inflexible they can be, the GPWC begins to look more and more tempting.

All the best Ant (a long time Williams supporter who wonders what Frank ever saw in Webber)

Don McIntyre wrote: : My biggest problem with F-1 these days is the fact that it's like : watching a parade. : It isn't the tracks, it is the cars and the Mosley inspired rules that they operate under.

Consider the tires - they look like they are 1/2 groove, so you lose a lot of grip compared to a true racing slick.

You have to consider the rear diffuser, or "screw the air flow for the guy following to the nth degree". I read about the drivers complaining that closing on somebody makes your head start to vibrate so badly you get blurred vision. In theory, you can make passes based on position, but then you have to deal with the Shumacher factor. If it is Ralf, it is almost guaranteed to end badly. If it is Mikey, you have to deal with some maneuver that causes a crash or you take an off. I hear after Mikey did his usual pass for the lead maneuver, Ferrari basically, again, told Rubens to hold position. Despite some heat over "no team orders", based on a certain incident at the USGP what, two years ago?

Besides, Mikey really needed 10 free points, and Max and Yuckle have been kneeling before Ferrari for years now...

The only "track" where passing is basically impossible is Monaco, at least for the F1 circuit. Long Beach and Australia for Chump Cars, actually, and temporary circuit can be pretty impossible to pass.

Bruce

Dave Williams wrote: : : Michelin says their tires would only last 10 laps. : I hadn't read that anywhere on Monday. Where did you see that? Neverless, it was an astoundingly huge blunder to have such a poor tire at a circuit that wasn't exactly new. : : As far as : Kimi's retirement, that risk decision was made by the team. They could have : brought Kimi in to change the flat-spotted tire with no FIA penalty, because : the tire was obviously unsafe. : Given several of the FIA decisions in th past few years, I would not have counted on the "obviously" part. Unless it had to do with points for Mikey/Ferrari.

Max and Yuckle have been all too happy to be his bitch in the past, overlooking infractions by Ferrari, but coming down hard on other makes.

In what was perhaps a petty move, I have to say that I am happy that Tony George didn't wave the checkers over that farce.

I am also happy that I don't give a rats about todays F1 cars. Take those damn wings away, down force, electronics and launch control (thankfully, active suspension is already gone!) Perhaps this will make those classic Tamiya 1/12 F1 kits a bit less pricey?

Still, FIA is not without some merit. If only we Americans could get The NASCAR Network to pay more attention to WRC Rally...

Bruce

------------------------------------------------------------------------ "I like bad!" Bruce Burden Austin, TX. - Thuganlitha The Power and the Prophet Robert Don Hughes

A sad sight, really. I watched it because I was at dinner with my folks. It was the first or second time that F1 has less TV audience than MotoGP, which, in the country of the Ferrari, means a lot.

Ciao Bonehammer