Poor math skills are OK?

Elsewhere on this group someone asked about a scale conversion calculator, and it's not the first time it's been requested either. I've always thought
this an odd thing, admitting that you aren't able to perform calculations requiring fractions and proportions, something that is taught in the fourth, fifth, or sixth grade in the US.
I guess that's a(nother) problem with our society - we are so willing as adults to just laugh it off when others say: "Oh, I can't do that math stuff. I was never any good at it so I just gave up. Nobody uses it anyway." It's in our culture that this is the norm. It's OK that you can't do these sorts of calculations. "Word Problems" - a national joke. Math is for nerds. No stigma, no concerns, no social negatives.
The reaction ought to be the same as if somebody had said: "Oh, I can't read. I was never any good at it so I just gave up. Nobody uses it anyway." Both skills are equally important in adult life.
Oh well.
BTW, let me cut you off before you guys go off on one of pet tangents, the US educational system. This really has nothing to do with teachers or schools. Please, save your electrons for some other thread.
KL
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Kurt Laughlin wrote:

Well I admit to sucking at word problems, mainly because in school it was always "Johhny and his apples" or "Eddie and his lawn mower".....wrong way to teach word problems IMHO, use problems based on something a kid might give the vaguest damn about or can at least visualize. As for math skills, I'm rusty, very rusty but I can do it. I don't bother with scale conversion for copiers though, not close enough or distortion free enough for my usage. I get plans scanned as a 1:1 .tif file and rescale after redrawing in a vector program.
As an example, I take a set of 1/16":1' battleship plans and scan them 1:1 .tif so the drawing in the raster image is literally 1/16":1', then draw an X and two Y axes at appropriate points. Clean up any scanning artifacts/noise, delete anything I don't need (like the exact internal layouts of decks) then use Wintopo to roughly vectorize them (the free version is a very rough vector, the paid version is much nicer). Import to a CAD package and lock the layer using a bright color to refer to. Then draw a 1:1 set of axes and use rescale/referent command to make the drawing truly 1:1. Then redraw all lines as needed using various colors and layers as makes sense to me. Finally delete the original reference layer and again rescale to whatever my target scale is. Why the extra step of rescaling to 1:1, easy, I can make a library of drawings for common elements like guns, directors, radars, paravanes, torpedoes, etc. and drop them in where needed on any ship that uses that element. It also lets me run checks off of the lift & loft tables and half lines tables using the real measurements. Thus I get an almost perfectly rescaled drawing that's clean and with only the lines I need to make a model. Then I have to get it pen plotted but no big deal. Takes a little more skill and a hell of a lot more time than rescaling on a copier but I haven't seen many copiers that can handle paper 36-42" wide and 6-24' long (the "copiers" that can handle it aren't even copiers, they're large format scanners that drive large format laser printers and most cannot do fractional percentages).
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Well, I see my asking about the conversion program caused a lot of hoopla on here. Kurt, does it say anywhere in my post I couldn't do math problems?....ah no...don't think it did. I do math...and have every day in my job...which is a mechanical draftsman. On top of that I just completed an Associates Degree in Business Management. One of the requirements being 3 semesters of math, Business Math, College Algebra, and Calculus. Now as a draftsman and in business there is a thing called "Time is Money" heard of it? I'm sure you have. The company makes more money if you spend less time doing drawings. So you save time where you can, hence I'll grab any program that saves time. Less time on the drawings also translates into less overhead on that particular job. Also, in my AutoCad, I have included many lisp routines that do many things at once, also a time saver. A begining Cad operator would have serious problems with my version, also he would spend way too much time doing mundane things.
I also do not enjoy many hours to put into modeling, so saving time where I can helps.
Now I will agree with some of what I've read here, there is way too many that get passed through school without being able to do math, but not math alone, I was surprised at the number in college that simply could not read! This is not the teachers fault alone, it is the fault of parents. When I was in school things were different, you were not passed along if you couldn't do the work, you were held back. You can't do that now, too many will get their feathers ruffled if you did. And schools lose funding.......too much concern for the "almighty dollar!" Who suffers? The kids really do, but we all do in the long run.
I raised three kids and all of them can do math, read well and write pretty good too. I made sure of that. They did their homework, they didn't get to play till they did, they hated me when they were young, but you know my youngest girl paid me a compliment the other day, she came to me and said that she didn't understand my ways when she was younger, but she is glad now that I was the tyrant that I was. She's just finishing up her last semester in the Regestered Nursing Program.
Thanks for letting me vent, Mike G.

calculator,
thought
calculations
fourth,
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Although I'm old enough to have learnt fractions at school (in the UK), nowadays most (that's an assumption on my part) of the civilised world uses the metric system, therefore the average thirty year old in Europe probably hasn't ever been exposed to fractions till they encounter an old drawing or dimensions table.
Oddly, I notice (I presume because of NATO) that the US military seem to refer to metres and kilometres.
JH

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As far as numerals go, is this also the reason dumbasses all over eBay don't know how to use Roman numerals? Like I always see listings for a "Mirage 111" (huh, maybe "Mirage III") or a "SPAD X111" (SPAD XIII) or what gets me more than "WW2" (WWII), (which may be acceptable now, I don't know. 25+ years ago my teachers marked "WW2" wrong), is WW11! WORLD WAR ELEVEN!!!!!! Gimme a f'ing break.

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Yup, highly infuriating. Even our good friends at Revellogram are guilty. Their latest release of Revell's Spitfire II has "Spitfire 11" on the box. You'd think someone would've known better. Cheers,
The Keeper (of too much crap!)
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frank may wrote:

One of my favorites was a Sci-Fi website that had a piece of fan fiction that had a UFO being chased by an F-III.
--
Edwin

(Remove "DIESPAMDIE!")
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Favorite blonde joke:
Why couldn't the blond call the police for help?
Couldn't find the "11" on the phone dial.
My stepdaughter is a blonde and most of the jokes fit.
Tom
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I've always admired anyone who can do complex math problems in thier head. Consider it a gift.
When I was in High School, (early eighties) therer were no computers and typing was still considered a "girls" curriculum. Most of the guys were taking metal shop. I opted for taking three years of typing, because frankly, thats where the girls were :-) I can now type over 50 wpm, and still have yet needed help to repair a lawnmower.
I agree that its not a problem with either schools or teachers. Everyone has a weakness. Mine is math.

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I also never did all that well in math. I have a Masters degree in engineering, and I can't do complex math in my head. I can't even scale off drawings myself without taking a pencil to paper and ciphering 36/1.23 X/2.70 before I solve for X. However, I at least have the patience and willingness (there ain't much knowledge involved) to sit down for (literally) a few seconds and figure it out. I'd be ashamed if I couldn't.
My sister once asked me: "I made $52 worth phone calls last month and $36 of them were sales calls. My phone taxes were $13. How do you figure out what part of the taxes can charged with the sales calls?" I wrote a little cipher on a page of her phone bill and she was grateful. Eleven years later I was visiting her house and saw that phone bill page tacked up above her desk. Even if she still wasn't able to figure it out for herself, she at least realized it and knew enough to keep the instructions handy. That's more than I can say for many people.
KL
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Good keeping there!
The Keeper (of too much crap!)
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That depends on what school you went to. In my (girls') school, if you had good grades you were in the "academic" curriculum (algebra, chemistry, physics etc.) and if you had lower grades you were in "commercial" (typing, bookkeeping etc.). No one gave any thought to those "academic" students needing to type *term papers*, much less use computers...
Sister Mary
M. J. Rudy snipped-for-privacy@hotmail.com http://mjrudy.tripod.com/home.html
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Kurt I wholeheartedly agree with your statement. I learned fractions in grade school and was a straight A student all through school. I even worked at the Chicago Options Exchange, doing nothing but fractions. I had to pass a very rigorous math test to even be hired. Fast Forward 20 years and for some reason I cannot do fractions to save my life. I seem to have had my memory erased when it comes to that kind of math. I guess when you are young and they are prepping you for "real life" it is never a consideration that if you don't need the math skills you may forget them. Cheers, Max Bryant

thought
fourth,
can't
is
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Its simply that you just don't need many of these skills on a daily basis so they tend to be swept into a corner of our brains. Fractions etc we might use fairly often but most of the algebra, geometry and ratio & proportion formulas we were taught are not needed that often. Having graduated in '67 I finally bought a book titled "Mathematics Made Easy" that was cheap but reminds me of all the formulas I need for the more obscure things I do. Grandpa
M Bryant wrote:

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I suspect that calculation using fractions is becoming a lost art because we rely so heavily on calculators, which typically yield decimal results. How many people can look at .375 (or 37.5%) and know instantly that it is 3/8? Our actual need to use fractions is probably much reduced; the stock market relies on decimal values now, and the increasing use of the metric system limits the fractionating generated by the English system (unless you're a cook).
The problem with the visualization of word problems is more disturbing, although I see in my daughter's Algebra II book that the teaching methods address this very directly and (IMO) effectively.
Certainly, part of this is repetitively doing these sorts of calculations. I can't remember any trigonometry, but I'm still quite good with most of the algebraic and geometric math elements, since I've had cause to use these over the years (programming, spreadsheeting, tutoring kids).
Scaling is not really a problem if you simply want to convert from one '1/x' scale to another, unless you have trouble visualizing the scale shift. The greater problem is converting numbers into actual measurements, especially with the English system. Something that is 4'10" in real life and scaled to 1/48, and which you neeed converted to 1/72, is effectively reduced in size by 1/3. This gives you (1/48) * 4'10" for the original, or 1/12' + 5/24". Now, divide by 3 and multiply by 2 to convert to 1/72: 1/18' + 5/36". The answer is 29/36"--good luck finding that on a ruler. The decimal equivalent, .8056", is probably close enough for modeling purposes to 8/10 of an inch. If you insist on using a standard ruler with binary divisions (1/2, 1/4, 1/8), your closest approximations will be 13/16" or 55/64". I can do this kind of math, but would prefer not to, which is why I have a Murphy's Rule with 1/48 and 1/72 scale on them. Of course, if you're fortunate enough to be working with metrics, the problems are much easier.
Mark Schynert
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Mark Schynert wrote:

It's about time they figured that visualizing word problems was a problem....and addressed it.

Now you know why I do the CAD conversion and work 1:1 in CAD, I can use actual measurements then scale down when I'm done.
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I'll admit to having a bias here, I teach 4th grade. Math facts, long division, multiplication facts, basic fractions/percents/decimals and more importantly 'math sense'. The 'does that answer make sense to you' sort of thinking. Also there are 40 more messages here I have not read yet, so I may be back w more <grin>
I had a good elementary/middle school school education, a good HS, a good college education,and I have an associated degree in Math.
But, like the person I am quoting above, I really LEARNED my addition facts when I delivered pizza to pay for school.
Standing ankle deep in the snow at 2am to make change motivated one to get really good at addition/subtraction really quickly.
Since then I have had little need to do much math more complicated than finding grade percentages (I use a calculator for speed), and have done no math in my life outside of work more complicated than cross multiplying. I learned Algebra, Trig, Geo, and even flailed at a semester or two of calc, and I find myself doing basic computation and intro algebra as my most common math situations. But what I do use every single day is the ability to look at a math situation and decide if the answer I get is reasonable. If I add a column of 2-digit numbers, and get a 5 digit answer, I KNOW it's wrong and recheck.
Hopefully, my students will carry that ability with them no matter what math they need to do in their lives. Mike please remove "diespam" to reply
If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs, perhaps you've misunderstood the situation.
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wrote:

Kurt,
Evidently this math problem is not just in the U.S. Recent comparisons of math tests in Europe show that even there there's a problem with falling scores.
As for me, I've got a kid in second grade and his public school here in Maryland started him on the concept of fractions in the first grade.
John Hairell ( snipped-for-privacy@yahoo.com)
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John Hairell wrote:

    This is a subject I am going to stay off of for the sake of my Blood pressure. A couple of the trainee draftsmen I had over the years were the source of much gray hair. As a draftsmen you should be able to add, subtract, multiply and divide, right?
                        Bill Shuey                     who is very happy to be retired!
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No, draftsmen only need to be able to draw straight lines with a straightedge & perfect circles with templates. Why math? ;)

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