Praying Mantis A-7Es

I'm not sure if this particular squadron equipped their Corsairs with sidewinders. But weren't all A-7's so equipped to do so ? And they don't interfere with other ordinance anyway ... and the A-7 could carry a hell of a load so I'm sure weight wouldn't be a factor. If I were an A-7 driver headed into harms way I believe I'd want some sidewinders on board. As far as the weight in the nose of your model and to keep it from being a tail sitter, here is what I do if I'm not sure about how much weight to add. I do a " dry fit " so to speak. Tape the fuselage and wings together and use something in place of the pivet point were the main gear attach to the fuselage. Toothpicks or whatever. This will give you a good indication of how much weight to add to the nose by how much it tips either nose down or tail down.

Certainly true but every piece of ordnance you carry that you don't lose means less gas back a the boat. Given the Libyan Air Force was not known for being terribly night capable and that I suspect the number of Tomcats airborne pretty much blotted out the moon I'm guessing they didn't have winders. Just a guess but I think a valid one.

Pugs

Tried that and it seems to be fairly neutral around the pivot point. However, there is a big advantage with using the Aires cockpit set. The coaming from the kit cockpit has to be cut away and replaced with a resin item. This replacement item can be fitted just before the canopy, leaving access to the nose all the way through the building process. If the model is staill a tail sitter when I've attached the undercarriage, then I'll just fill the nose with liquid lead.

Operation Praying Mantis was against Iranian forces in the Strait of Hormuz. However, you have a point. I can't imagine what sort of viable air to air threat the Iranian air force could present to a US Navy carrier group, then or now. They have a number of antiquated F-4s and a handful of F-14s, which may or may not be used solely in the AWACS role. I've no doubt that the US fighter screen would have numbered dozens of F-14s, each one with a crew who were far better trained than their Iranian equivalents and just itching to be able to paint an F-14 kill on the nose of their jet! It would have been madness for an Iranian pilot to attempt to engage an A-7!

Dang, that's what I get for posting while thinking about building a VA-46 A-7 from El Dorado Canyon! You're correct of course.

Now here's an odd one and I've only ever seen photo's once. During the Iranian hostage rescue the Naval Aircraft on one of the boats had orange and black "invasion" stripes painted on them. Pictures were deemed "classified" at the time (and all the silliness that entails). I believe I saw them in Tailhook magazine back in the 90's. Anyone else recall shots like that?

Agh!!! Will you just *stop* putting temptation my way?!?!? :-D

I get so easily obsessed by things. I have ten A-7 kits in my stash, with markings planned out for all of them, and the A-7 isn't really one of the aircraft that I'm obsessed by... but I think I'm just about on the brink!

I've seen a single, solitary picture of an F-4N painted like that, but I can't remember where. As far as I remember, it had the stripes on the starboard wing only.

The one's I saw were A-7's, A-6's and an F-4. They were taken from vultures row looking at the waist cat. There were maybe four shots. I don't remember if it was just one wing but sure could have been. I'll have to ping a friend of mine who'll know and post the results. Just by way of shameless commerce I'll point out he just published second book and it's one every Naval Aviation nut needs.

Tip of the Spear: U.S. Navy Carrier Units and Operations 1974-2000 (Hardcover) by Rick Morgan # ISBN-10: 076432585X # ISBN-13: 978-0764325854

The idea of such tactical markings is to visually differentiate your aircraft from theirs, particularly in the case of the Iranians since they flew a lot of the same equipment we were using.

If the markings were not classified, that information could easily have come into the hands of the Iranians.

If so, there would be nothing to stop them from painting the same stripes on their aircraft. If they had done so, it would have negated the entire purpose of them in the first place.

During the (first) Gulf war special ops helos were painted with black-white tactical markings (one of my photos of this on an MH-53 was published in a FSM article after the war). Information about them was also not released until after the operation.

So......why is it that classifying such tactical markings at the time of such operation would be silliness?

The Hawker Typhoon originally had black and white stripes painted on the wing undersurfaces (similar to the later D-Day markings) in order to differentiate it from the FW-190 to which it was superficially similar. I remember reading that once the Germans realised the purpose of the markings they painted similar ones on the FW-190s which were engaged in "tip and run" raids on the English south coast.

Bill, Because for something to be classified it means that everyone who sees it should have a security clearance at that level. It makes perfect sense for plans for said markings to be classified. Once you put the jets on the hangar bay and thence the flight deck for 5000+ sailors to see it no longer makes sense for it to be classified as very few folks (relative to the carrier population) have a clearance of any sort.

There is no such classification as "only classified for pictures" it's either classified at some level or not.

Don't get me wrong. At 20+ years with a high level clearance I'm very security conscious but only when it makes sense.

Nothing like the word from the horses mouth! Thanks Kelly

Pugs (retired Prowler ECMO)

Where is the harm in trying to tamp down casual access to the information prior to the operation?

WmB

My point exactly. Prior to the op makes good sense. Later after thousands have seen them why make a big deal about it.

Excellent! Thanks very much, Kelly. That's exactly the information that I needed.

Perhaps but don't forget that those 5,000+ sailors were at sea and Op PRAYING MANTIS took place before the era of widely-used instant communication like e-mail and cell phones. I still do not think it was particularly silly and, in fact, made pretty good OPSEC to protect those tactical markings.

I thought I was talking about the period before and during the operation. Same went with the tactical markings on SOF helos in the Gulf War. Once the OP is over, protecting it has dwindling returns. However (and since you indicate you also have a security clearance, you certainly already know this), declassification does not always happen overnight. There is a specific process for review and downgrading of classified material. I think that's about all we better say about that.

Exactly Bill operational security. No reason to classify things after the operation has commenced (or in this case didn't much)

Superscale sheet 48-834 features an A-7 with those markings.