When is it no longer the kit you bought?

Hey all, this is a question I've been asking myself for a while now
since I finished my last project. I bought a reveel thunderbirds F-4
set off of Ebay and proceeded to build it. The decals weren't the
way they should have been so I bought specific Thunderbirds F-4
decals. The landing gear sucked so I bought some white-metal
gear. The exhausts weren't what I wanted so I substituted some
Resin re-pops from an ERTL kit. The cockpits, AUGH! I _HAD_
to substitute the Monogram interior, re-popped from resin and
trimmed to fit. Gods forbid I leave out any extras, so I added some
PO that I'd bought four sets of.
At what point did I stop building the model and go over the edge?
Understanding, of course, that intent is what the modeler has in mind,
when do we as enthusiasts cross the line into anal-retention? I'm
currently building a series of kits for the local Air Guard unit and
did this set as a 'fun thing' and only later realised that I'd spent
nearly two months wages and well over 200+ hours on it. Leaving
all issues of AMS aside, when would a person _JUDGING_ such
a 'kit' find it to no longer be the kit that was built? I'm also a
judge for several contests, and am now seriously considering my
ability to judge.
Where do we need to draw the line?
Nothing hard and fast of course, it differs from case to case, obvi-
ously. But I think that this is something that needs to be taken up
in consideration by IPMS, etc. as a major issue. If a person is
to throw differnet decals at a kit it's obviously the same kit, and
should be judged as another of its similar ilk. But perhaps a person
has decided to take a Hasegawa F-102 and throw a new fuse-
lage, weapons, decals, gear, cockpit, tail, canopy, and wing tanks
at it...
IS IT STILL THE SAME KIT?
And more importantly, is it content, or dollar amount that decides?
I can go out and spend $10 on a kit at Hobby Lobby (full price)
and then sur the net to find $200 in add-ons. Is it still the same
kit as the guy who buys it and throws $15 worth of decals at it?
I'm more or less worried (I suppose) about the 'upper class' kit
builders bein g able to out spend the 'lower class' kit builders.
[class being in reference to amount available to be spent on a
given kit. A person earning $150K in a household with five
teenagers will have far less to spend on kits and his hobby than
the average $50K single person in an apartment with 3 other
people non-related]
Keeping AMS out of this as much as possible, what do we need
to look at when we decide this?
Just trying to spark some intelligent __D_I_S_C_U_S_S_I_O_N___!
Reply to
Drew Hill
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Actually that old Hasegawa F-4E wasn't half bad - it was certainly light years better than the Revell PoS and would make a good-looking display model.
Me? I'm never in a foul mood..... ;-p
Besides, I was serious. A set of old Hasegawa F-4Es built gear-up on the Revell stand would look really cool.
Reply to
Al Superczynski
to some lesser extent the result. That means money and time spent are not really relevant (unless you have a shortage of either). It all depends on your motivation.>>
Of course it matters, but therein lies the rub... Psychologically, the motivation is the fact that it's human nature to do whatever to gain the approval of one's peers; we do it everyday, from the clothes we wear, to driving a cool car, to owning a nice house. For some guys it's who has the most kick-ass garage/shop, and whatever in it. In modeling, that runs the gamut from just having a well-built whatever on the shelf to show off, to having a really well-built whatever sitting on a table at a show, praying for gold. In either case, we want others to look at it and say/think, "Nice job!" So, I'd say the line lies at that point where we are CONCSIUOSLY trying to please others, and do whatever it may take in that pursuit. You've changed the kit so drastically it's no longer much of the original. Unfortunately, you've also changed yourself in the process. That's why it's so difficult for some, myself included, to get kits built--it's never quite good enough, and there's a real lack of a sense of satisfaction. Ok, I'm done now.
When once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been, and there you will always long to return. --Leonardo Da Vinci
Reply to
Disco -- FlyNavy
The other takes on the question are interesting. Mine is a little different,
I want the best model I (emphasis on that; my talent pool is hardly unlimited) can build. Unfortunately (?), I also want the model to be the exact variant I'm interested in, and it seems that is never one that the kit caters to. For example, I wanted to build the one-and-only RP-38E, AKA the Swordfish. There is an Execuform conversion set, tuned to the Airfix 1/72 P-38F/G kit. The primary issue is carving away the original central pod and substituting the extended Swordfish pod and glazing. In the process, I had to come up with detail for two cockpits, not just one. Aftermarket ensued.
A more 'reasonable' exercise was the Meteor III. I took a $6.98 Airfix kit, which is basically okay, though the fit and the rivets are nothing to write home about. By the time I got Aeroclub accessories for the canopy and the landing gear, and some photoetch and a resin seat for the cockpit (which was essentially bare), I had more than tripled the cost of the kit.
On the other hand, the Sword kit of the Sikorsky S-43 was nice enough that I didn't buy any aftermarket at all. I had a set of decals that would work for a Pan Am Baby Clipper, and the few bits that weren't in the kit (a double-gate-fold dorsal hatch and float bracing wires) I scratch-built.
I figure that it's not the same kit anymore when you don't even care about the shape of the major components. To me, the airframe must have the right shape or its not worth using even as a starting point. I modified Av Usk car-door Typhoon wings and tailplanes to go onto a resin fuselage from Maintrack to create a Centaurus Tornado. That was not an Av Usk kit at that point--it was simply a donor.
As for IPMS, who cares? I enter contests, and I'm a member of IPMS, but I don't see an issue. I f people want to compete for OOB honors, I'm pleased as punch for them, but I wouldn't ever bother, because I always add something or change something, even if it's a minimal as adding a radio antenna line or few details in the cockpit. AFAIC, the OOB awards are bogus, since if models are judged correctly (on the basics), a well-built OOB kit of something with a reasonably complette cockpit (for aircraft) ought to have as much of a chance of taking first as one tricked out with $200 of aftermarket. After all, nothing in OOB, prevents aftermarket decals, a complex paint scheme or weathering. Whatever: it's just my pet rant of the month.
Mark Schynert
Reply to
Mark Schynert
I think that's when you went over the edge into AMSville.
It doens't matter what the kit started out as, just the finished product. Whether it's out of the box or you've got every aftermarket set available on it, it should be judged as how close to the real thing does the replica come? Personally, I think it's time to expand the Out Of the Box category into three places as in years past. just my 02¢ The Keeper (of too much crap)
Reply to
Keeper
It does have as much chance and this exact thing *has* happened. It's not at all unusual for an OOB model to take first in class overall.
Reply to
Al Superczynski
Out Of the Box.
Reply to
Al Superczynski
And Al Superczynski opened up and revealed to the world news: snipped-for-privacy@4ax.com:
Al,
Thanks, for clearing that up. Ok, now then though does that mean a kit with little to no aftermarket parts, or one that is "fully" tricked out with "tons" of aftermarket parts?
Digital_Cowboy
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Reply to
Digital_Cowboy
Here are the OOB rules for the upcoming IPMS/USA convention's contest next month in Phoenix, from their website at
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:
"OUT-OF-THE-BOX entries will be governed by the following rules: A. KITS. Any commercially available kit may be used. The number of categories incorporating Out-Of-The-Box awards will be determined by the host chapter and the National Contest Committee. B. FINISH. All finishing techniques are allowed. Decals other than those included with the kit may be used. Insignia, markings, and instrument panels may be hand-painted instead of decaled. Weathering is permitted. C. CONSTRUCTION. The modeler may fill seams and gaps; sand off rivets; drill out gun ports, exhaust pipes, or other appropriate openings; thin to scale such parts as trailing edges, flaps, and doors; add rigging and antennas; and add simple tape or decal seat belts in the cockpit of an aircraft or the interior of a vehicle (NO commercial or modeler manufactured hardware - e.g., buckles, etc.). D. IT IS NOT PERMITTED TO: vacuform, manufacture, or replace any part, or substitute parts from another kit; cut or separate canopies, surfaces, hatches, doors, etc. (no major surgery); combine a standard kit with a conversion kit; add anything other than specified on the instruction sheet except as shown in Section C above. E. INSTRUCTION SHEETS. Modelers must attach the kit instruction sheet to the entry form. Models entered without an attached kit instruction sheet will not be considered for an Out-of-the-Box award."
Reply to
Al Superczynski
That's generally right but individual contest rules can vary.
Reply to
Al Superczynski
And Al Superczynski opened up and revealed to the world news: snipped-for-privacy@4ax.com:
Al,
Ok, again thanks for the information. When I decided to get back into building models I had no idea that there was SO much to consider. . .
Here's another good question, if a person builds a diorama to display their model how does that affect the judging? Or is that a whole other category?
Digital_Cowboy
- -- Live Long and Prosper . + . + . . .. .. . ______________________. . . . __ . \_______NCC_1701______|) .______.---'--'---.________ || || /-------.__________.-------/ /============/___/ '--' . \==\_____________|(- + . . + . . . . . + + .. . + . . + . . . . . . . + . .
Reply to
Digital_Cowboy
It's a whole different catergory...
Reply to
Al Superczynski
Sorry, but nope. I'm way too self centered for that. Don't get me wrong, I enjoy peer approval, but it is very much secondary to my own opinion. I have to like what I'm doing first and foremost, and if the rest of the galaxy approves, so much the better. If not, their loss, not my problem.
Nope, I want to be able to look at it, and think, "Damn, I'm good". The few kits that achieve that level do get taken out for showing off, but that is never the point.
Rob
Reply to
Rob van Riel
I stand corrected. My problem is mainly with the J/K/M kits they had, which were ghastly. I've dumped every single one in my stash. The E looks like it could, with a considerable amount of effort, be made into a nice model, and would certainly be good enough for a display stand full of them.
Rob
Reply to
Rob van Riel
Yeah. To say those were among the worst of Hasegawa's older kits would be an understatement. Back in the day, though, the only way to get a decent J was to graft its nose onto a Hasegawa E. We're spoiled by an embarrassment of riches these days.
Reply to
Al Superczynski
The distinction largely has to do with how you enter the model. If you enter a scene of a ground crew servicing an F-4 Phantom into 'multi-engined jet 1/48', the crew and the tools and the service vehicles technically aren't to be judged--just the Phantom. If you enter it in a 'vignette' or 'diorama' category, then everything is fair game, plus there must be a story element communicated by the piece. Or, at least, so I understand the rules.
Mark Schynert
Reply to
Mark Schynert
Under IPMS/USA rules that would be a diorama:
"The model may include primary crew figures. The addition of any other figures or equipment outside, or not attached to, the model (e.g., support equipment, foliage, shell splashes, or buildings) will make the model a Diorama, which must then be entered in the proper Diorama category."
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I think it would be considered a diorama in most other contests as well.
Reply to
Al Superczynski
We would just judge the "Double Ugly" if it was entered as an F-4. If it came in as a Diorama, then the whole lot would be critiqued. But then, we don't have too many rules - it saves on the post-judging 'discussions'.
RobG
Reply to
Rob Grinberg
Flyboy - don't take this too personally, but....
No it doesn't. Because, in the end, it's only bits of plastic, and anyone who thinks that bits of plastic 'MATTER' needs help. Or to get a life.
but therein lies the rub... Psychologically, the
?? Not here, mate. I wear clothes 'coz I gotta, drive a 4WD ute 'coz it gets me where I wanna go (ie: AWAY from people who wear clothes and drive cars that make 'statements' - poor deluded fools), and live in a house 'coz a box is too damn cold in the winter. Don't paint all the world with your own insecurities. :)
For some guys it's who has the
If I'm happy with it then it's OK with me - everyone else can take their opinions for a long walk off a short pier.
Hmm... if I believed in it, I'd say you need therapy. Or maybe if you just stopped worrying about what everybody else thinks of you, your car, your clothes and your aptitude (or lack of same? - not a critcism, just a reflection on your comment above) for your chosen hobby, maybe you'd get more modelling done, enjoy it more and have something for YOU to look at for your efforts. But I never finish models either - it's a hobby I enjoy DOING - not FINISHING. Just like fishing, really. If you finished fishing, then when you'd caught one of every species that you liked, you'd stop. Unless you felt you *really* needed to have eleventy-one coral trout, walleye bass, chinook salmon or (insert other favourite here) in your collection. Maybe you should try fishing? :) If you're any good at it, you can eat the results. Unlike modelling, where you can't. Or shouldn't, anyway. :)
But these are just my opinions and maybe you think I should take a long walk...
RobG
Reply to
Rob Grinberg
Ahh, but what is the most impotant criteria, Grasshopper? Is it the skill used in the building of the kit, the scale likeness to the original, the artistic 'look' of the piece, or some imponderable that is yet to be satisfactorily determined as applicable to ALL models, built from ALL kits (and scratchbuilts), of ALL quality and accuracy levels, in ALL scales and of ALL subjects, by ALL modellers (past, present and future) of ALL skill and income levels, from ALL countries (including those where the hobby is yet to spread its blight), using ALL the various weathering and construction techniques available (published and un-published), PLUS whatever other variables you want to add.... which means exactly diddly.
Let's stop playing with ourselves. If you want to enter a contest, do so. Read and understand the rules of THAT contest (get an adult to help you with the big words) so that you can't cry if you don't win. If you happen to be honoured with the acclaim of your peers, bully for you. If not, tough. Better yet, learn to enjoy your hobby and the imperfect scale likenesses that result. Did YOU enjoy the process of kit selection, construction and finishing? That's what counts. All the rest is BS.
In which case, modelling shows are gunna get real empty, real soon. 'Coz most models look like models. Which is funny, 'coz that's EXACTLY what they are. Only mega-rich modellers will be eligible for your contest, because a truly accurate model can only be a full-size recreation of the original, using the original materials and construction techniques used in the creation of the original, thus making it indistinguishable from the original - whatever that may be. Except for figure modellers - all you figure guys out there had better discover how to create life real fast, because that's the way you'll be judged. If you ain't got a walkin', talkin', shootin', lootin' life-size soldier on the table, you won't have a prayer. I think Bill Gates and God have got the next Nats sewn up, 'cause although God ain't rich, Gates can't create s**t.
places as in years past. just my 02¢ The Keeper (of too much crap)
Personally, I think it's time we all stopped crapping on and started to build more models, the ones we like, the way we like. And the critics can go f.. f.. fff.. flame themselves. (Thanks, Al)
RobG and that's about a buck-75's worth - I'm cheap.
Reply to
Rob Grinberg

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