OT: comp.cad.solidworks Charter changes

I would propose that we as a group consider making the following changes to the charter. To do this it must be discussed here and a
consensus formed. To start the discussion I will make the following proposals. If there is support for these changes then they will be pursued. I'm trying to keep it simple, uniform, fair and balanced. If you like the idea, _agree_. If you have a better idea, post your input. If you don't like the idea, _disagree_.
The purpose of this proposal is to cut down on the noise on the group. In the last few years the number of spam, cross posters and endless off charter discussions has risen to the point that there have actually had to be howto discussions on kill lists, etc. This is the premier and oldest SolidWorks discussion forum and the most open and independent.
moderated group comp.cad.solidworks
7. Moderation of the group shall be by robot moderator. The robot moderator shall be set to reject posters deemed by the group to not be consistent with the charter. No pre-approval shall be required to join or post on the group.
8. Moderators of the group shall be approved by group consensus and shall each have equal control over the robot moderator. Moderators will share equally in the cost of maintaining the robot moderator.
The following is the original charter for this newsgroup posted by Greg Jankowski. Note that his URL and email have changed.
Regards; Greg Jankowski snipped-for-privacy@wauknet.com http://www.wauknet.com/cimco
REQUEST FOR DISCUSSION (RFD) unmoderated group comp.cad.solidworks
This is a formal Request For Discussion (RFD) for the creation of a world-wide unmoderated Usenet newsgroup group.name. This is not a Call for Votes (CFV); you cannot vote at this time. Procedural details are below.
Newsgroup line: comp.cad.solidworks Computer-aided design systems from SolidWorks Corp.
RATIONALE: comp.cad.solidworks
To provide a forum for the users of SolidWorks Corporation's SolidWorks computer-aided design program.
This forum will allow users to share ideas, network with their peers, and solict advice from other users.
The comp.cad.pro-engineer newsgroup has been used quite ofter to post messages conserning SolidWorks. Separating this into a new newsgroup will allow users to view and post messages which are meant for only SolidWorks or for ProEngineer.
CHARTER: comp.cad.solidworks
comp.cad.solidworks will be a newsgroup for anyone interested in SolidWorks Corp. SolidWorks computer-aided design program. The purpose of this newgroup will be:
1. To discuss designing, drafting, programming, and administration of SolidWorks CAD systems.
2. To share ideas, information, and specific experience regarding the use of SolidWorks.
3. To discuss third-party add-on products for SolidWorks.
4. To discuss enhancements concerning SolidWorks.
5. To educate and inform others about the strengths, weaknesses, and general usage of SolidWorks.
6. To allow announcements of products and events for SolidWorks, third-party products, and user groups.
Discussion on comparisons between SolidWorks and other CAD systems should be held in the most appropriate newsgroup. Messages should be posted in a professional, polite manner as to not purposely offend or insult another person.
The charter is a statement of what constitutes good manners in the newsgroup. It will be enforced through cooperation, mutual respect, and peer pressure when necessary. Anyone who willfully persists in violating the newsgroup's charter will in all likelihood eventually be asked, by the newsgroup's regular participants, to stop posting. If further sanctions are necessary, they will be discussed with the offender, or in news.admin.misc.
END CHARTER.
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Agree.
WT
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?????? HELLO POT ?????????
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In the 10 years I have been in this group (lurking for the first 6 or 7 years) I started 1 thread IIRC and it was on topic about a pleasant surprise with SolidWorks & CamWorks 2007 right out of the box. All my other posts have been in response to others.
The reason I said HELLO POT is because unlike you Cliff I have NEVER added a cross post. I have never cross posted to your Kook, Political & Extremist groups as you constantly do. Your practice that brings the nut cases and spamers back to us here in comp.cad.solidworks and in alt.machines.cnc.
When responding to posts I try to remember to look up and see what groups the original message I am responding to was posted and remove the cross posted kook, political & off topic groups before I send my response. I said try, I am not as vigilant I could be.
And yes I am guilty of responding to the banquer CAD/CAM eggspurt.
Tom
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Agree
Gary
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Calling this the premier SW group doesn't hold water under testing. Far more people find substantial SW help on Eng-tips.com and the SW fora. More traffic and more questions answered. The only real advantage here is for those who are overhabituated to NG readers.
I do agree that moderation would help. I am against robot moderators. I doubt they will work well enough.
Trolls go where they are fed. Ignore them and they will go away, once they are done licking up their own vomit.
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I believe in free which means I also believe in allowing people the same right to free speech even if what they have to say makes my blood boil.

This is the oldest, most open and independent where you are now proposing to close and make it dependent.

We already have moderated SolidWorks groups/forums. If you don't like the wild west (freedom of sp each) unmoderated comp.cad.solidworks then move to the city (moderated solidworks group). Better yet just set up your own personal newsgroup filters set to YOUR preferences not someone else's consensus, it's not that hard.
Most of the people/posts you try to moderate here will just create fake names and email addresses, spoof, etc. to get around the "pre-approved group consensus moderated filters" and keep it up anyway (not me).
Out of curiosity you must have some thought on how to set up the filters now. How exactly are you thinking of filtering (moderating) this group?
By number of cross posts? No cross posting? Posters? Keywords? In other words how do you propose to keep it simple, fair, balanced?
I believe in the charter however abiding by it at this point is voluntary. Point it out to the offender when you feel they are violating the charter, that's fine. If you wish to bring a little peer pressure to get people to abide by it that's OK as well. However I am reluctant to agree to taking the only free speech zone left and making it an approved speech only group.
Tom
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I agree with Tom Just learn to use a kill file and leave the group open.
snipped-for-privacy@aol.com wrote:

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I wish this were MORE like the WIld West. Guns and gallows and lynch mobs to deal with offenders appropriately. Freedom of speech regulated by "regulator".
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Tom,
This is an age old topic. I believe in freedom of speech also. So for example when I start a thread on a topic like _cross posting_ on the group something is taken from our freedom of speech when a game of verbal ping pong ensues on the subject of, dare it be mentioned, SyncTech. Surely many would have liked to respond to the original topic but did not, short changing us of a discussion on cross posting. There were many other threads on SyncTech. This is a charter driven NG. And there is a thing called netiquette. And one thing that should be borne in mind is that a NG is not for any one person's gratification, but rather the pursuit of an idea and the benefit of all. That is why there are so many different news groups.
The type of moderation that is being envisioned is to make free speech possible. Most moderated groups require some sort of entry approvals or even payments (Eng-Tips, SWCad, SW fora, blogs, etc.) And they will bounce members that stray even a little bit from their path. That is not what is being envisioned here. Rather what is envisioned is the control of noise with noise being defined as that speech which is outside the charter and outside the bounds of netiquette so that a discussion of SW can ensue.
There was the wild west in which men/women were free to roam and seek their fortunes. Then there are dude ranches in which men/women go to ride down the same trails week after week in search of the feeling that they are in the wild west. I never understood dude ranches. In the wild west part of this NG people explore SW (the software and the company) and get it to go where it has never gone before in pursuit of their fortunes.
As for the how to moderate, I suppose that would be based on consensus within the scope of the charter as far as individuals go. We already had the discussion on cross posting and the consensus there was that there shouldn't be any (or at least it should be very limited). I think you were part of that thread.
And yes I have given the mechanics of it some thought. I will give an example using a hypothetical name of a non-existent person. For the sake of discussion only let's say the name is bob zee. For some reason bob zee has been moderated out (I don't think this would really happen, it is just an example). So bob zee starts posting as george why. He would probably get one post before a moderator would notice the unmistakable way bob zee writes. Bingo, george why is blacklisted too. What you should take away from this is that moderation would be directed at behavior, not persons so faking an identity will not solve anything if the behavior continues.
Sorry bob zee, even hypothetical non-existent people have feelings. I hope you take this in the spirit it was intended.
TOP
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Top,
First off let me say I respect your opinion, I don't agree with all your points but it is well written and thought out.

This sentence is contradictory, can't create free speech by limiting speech. lets call it what it really is, the whole point of this discussion and proposal to moderate this group is to eliminate the speech we don't like.
This is not a case where someone is yelling fire in a crowded theater where it can cause injury or even death, this is strictly speech and only speech.

Censorship (moderating) once started is a slippery slope.

I did not participate on the OP subject. I did participate in the thread drift where I responded to Jon's posts about shit SolidWorks and how great he thinks SolidEdge is although he has never seen or used.
I did not participate in the OP because I felt it would be hypocritical of me to do so. IMO it was not only about cross posting but also about "feeding the troll/s" which I am guilty of.
I don't like cross posting as a general rule but in some very limited instances it has it's place. The discussion about a machinist changing an engineers solid comes to mind, the thread that was cross posted alt.machines.cnc, it is relevant to both groups CAD/CAM and led to a lively discussion.

Your example is not deleting the offending posts but attempting to block a person from ever posting. Where do you draw the line on offensive signal to noise ratio, 100:1, 1:100?
This is a prime example of the slippery slope.

So the issues are:
1) Block Trolls
Jon has already stated he does not care what others think about him and that he is not going to stop. He won't settle for anything unless it is unilaterally imposed in his favor.
Trying to block trolls doesn't work, for example: Jon uses numerous aliases in the MasterCAM forum, each time one gets banned he just creates new ones so it doesn't reduce let alone eliminate his noise.
2) Stop Cross posting Cliff by his actions in alt.machines.cnc has demonstrated he will not stop cross posting to kook & extremist groups fishing for nut cases and leading them here.
3) Stop feeding the trolls
I don't believe "not feeding the trolls" eliminates the troll. I will however bow to peer pressure and stop feeding the trolls for a while to see what happens. I will respond to OP's and maybe a little thread drift if it isn't feeding who I consider a troll.
4) Eliminate Spam
I have filters so I don't see the noise, most OT's, spam, political posts and extremists lead here by cross posting.
Tom
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Robot moderators have an option to post rejected posts on a web site. So if somebody really wants to see what was rejected and has a problem with it they can bring it up on the group. This pretty much takes care of the censorship because there isn't any. The removed posts are available and typically anyone who's post is removed is notified by a bounce message.
TOP
On Sep 3, 12:12 am, snipped-for-privacy@aol.com wrote:

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Agree
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Maybe I'm victim of a strong spam filter: jean-marc(dot)brun - guess what here - tgcp(dot)fr
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It is what it is, moving the soapbox IS censorship, and that's OK, just don't try to call it something other than what it is.
Tom
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snipped-for-privacy@aol.com wrote:

Most of the support for this alleged change has come from people posting from Google Groups. If you want exact numbers, ask, and I'll ferret them out of my news spool. (I suspect quite a few are first time posters asked to come here from various web forums too, that would never fly with the Big 8 Management Board) If they cared about the newsgroup they'd seek out real news servers with which proper news reading software can be used and with the proper news reading software most of the noise is trivial to filter out. Google Groups offers no such functionality.
The users of this newsgroup (and all the support that seems to have crawled out of the woodwork) have the ability to make it what they want as it is now yet choose not to by using the poorest means available with which to read and post.
--
Black Dragon

Ninety percent of everything is crap.
  Click to see the full signature.
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For many of us, myself included, unless comp.cad.solidworks is disinfected, there is no reason to install and maintain a news reader. Most of us here are not professional usenet crawlers, its just a source. If this newsgroup is able to resurface as a source of information, I will install a reader. In my blog request for people to come here I made an argument in favor of using real news servers and real news readers. I access through google because I haven't been here or any usenet newsgroup in months, and google works as a temporary stopgap for this discussion.
If people choose to post via google, that is their issue to deal with. Although I certainly agree with the recommendation to use a proper server and reader, I don't believe enforced elitism is part of what TOP is trying to promote.
Matt Lombard
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WAAAHHHHH !!!!
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Black Dragon's logic: if there's a pile of crap on the kitchen floor, you shouldn't turn on the light.
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On Fri, 5 Sep 2008 06:41:44 -0700 (PDT), That70sTick

More like: if the dog crap's on the kitchen floor at night stop locking him in lock him out.
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