Re: LMAO

Well I didn't get to read the full comments, but I agree 100% about his comments in the interview.

If you don't, then you must either live in cuckoo land or don't use cad/cam software.

Read the post, "aha! surfacing and splines info", for example.

> >>>> >>>
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> [ > UPDATE -- July 8, 2007 -- I had to close this blog post to further > comments and > to remove the personal attacks between Jon and some other newsgroups > readers. > Before the interview, I made an agreement with Jon about the style of the > interview and the way to handle it. Jon didn't respect our agreement, > posting > comments under fake names. Jon's authentic and fake comments are all > posted from > the same IP address, 72.199.251.224. I can now see that my trust in Jon > was > misplaced. > ] > >> LMAO !!! > > LMAO !!! > > We could have warned him. What did he expect? > Poor clueless got caught again. Perhaps he missed some of his > posts as well? > And posts that did not "attack" him were removed as well I'd > guess. Wonder what all I missed . It was probably good. > -- > Cliff
Reply to
pete
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Pete,

Is your post just a quiz for Cliff or are you really interested in the subject and want some input?

Tom

Reply to
brewertr

Planning, but after being bitten with Solidworks, you can understand the caution I will be taking on buying a cam package.

And before the vx guys start pestering me to drop solidworks for VX, that sucks at what I do too, as I proved at the expo in the UK, lol

Both

Hidden extras, as in post processors for each machine? RJ45 or serial converters from machine to PC or LAN. Was there something that was missed between the quote and the final installation?

What I mean about recoding, is when the data is sent to the machine, (Hurco for example), will it work straight away or will it require some rework on the code.

Good point, about not limiting ourselves, that one is on the make sure list.

Current way:= Solidworks model- print- program into Hurco- finished part.

Ideal world:= Solidworks model -cam software-Hurco- finished part.

Is this feasible?

Reply to
pete

Honest, this is a real interest and a planned mission.

My guy on the shop floor have little knowledge of cam system and program each machine with the in-built software supplied.

What I want to do is get Cliff, who, when reading between his posts, seems to have an awful lot of skill and experience, to help me choose a route that will not fail to deliver in the way Solidworks has.

I agree with JB on a lot of things, BUT, he has no skill in the real world.

If Cliff is unwilling or does not have the time, then I have no problem with that.

Maybe the starting point would be for me to explain what systems, (or not), we have in place at the moment. Even more important, do we need, to get a cam system? We don't have big production runs, but a lots of one to twenty.

Reply to
pete

Who is going to do your programming?

If your guy on the shop floor is good and stable then your best bet is to train him (it has ALWAYS worked out for me, promoting from within). If you go this route you should negotiate some one on one training with the VAR prior to any purchase. Make sure the one on one training is specific to your product line and machines, don't expect to get away with the standard general introductory training that comes with the product.

It would be best IMO to do the standard introductory training, then a day or so of one on one training specific to your product line and machines. Let your guy work with it a couple of weeks in the production environment and then have a follow up one on one session to go over issues that come up.

Don't even try making the change without budgeting for training, you might as well have someone run up to you a kick you in the nuts if you even consider it. One on one training may seem expensive but for every dollar you spend up front will save you at least ten dollars in the first year alone.

One on one training vs. going thru the manual, web and video tutorials is the difference between getting up and running and getting up, crawling, bumping into a few walls, standing up, walking and eventually progress to up and running.

You can always hire an experienced programmer but that will cost you more per hour and whoever you hire their work habits will be an unknown for a while. If you promote from within your up front costs will be a little higher but you will make it back fast and you are working with a person who you know and who knows your product, machines & works well within your company.

Make sure you negotiate Postprocessor's that will generate the EXACT style and format G-Code your machines require and what YOU want for your machines. With a properly programmed part and a properly configured postprocessor there should be no reason to edit G-Code before it goes to the machine.

Cliff has no experience with CAM that I am aware of. Cliff used to work with CAD but retired and his hands-on-knowledge is maybe a decade or more old.

Wow, that's a tough one for me....LOL....but here goes.

I disagree with Jon on a few things and even push his buttons from time to time but Jon works as a machinist, Cliff on the other hand knows nothing about programming, setting up or operating a CNC. Not even sure Cliff knows what a CNC looks like.

Cliff has demonstrated his CAD knowledge is dated and from his posts I don't think he has ever actually used a CAM product.

Tom

Reply to
brewertr

Yes

There is no program that can be all things to all people. You need one specific to your needs. First define your need and wants, define specific detailed parameters for your companies search.

Contract for custom Postprocessor's for your machines at the time you are negotiating the CAM program purchase. With a properly configured postprocessor you will get 100% good G-Code for your machines, if the part was programmed correctly in the first place but of course verify before you buy.

If the code was generated thru SolidWorks say using CamWorks then there should be no necessity to reverse the code.

If you are saying you edited the code on the machine then when you reverse post process it you most likely will lose associatively.

If I understand what you are asking and you are trying to reverse existing G-Code that was created by another program or at the machine controller itself you can reverse the program but you only get wireframe tool path at best. Reverse processing will NOT create a solid or a CAM model for you nor will it have the associatively your question may be inferring.

Lots of things, verify EVERYTHING you are told. Have the VAR put everything in writing in their quote and you write it up in your purchase order.

here are two other tips.

Don't settle for a canned, rehearsed demo, your demo should include them programming your part & generating good G-Code for your machines. Make sure you are comparing apples to apples, give each prospective vendor the exact same challenge. Choose a print or model that is representative of your work, something that should not take more than a half hour to program (less if possible). Let them know ahead of time you are going to do this but don't give them the model or print before hand.

And check the damn G-Code they generate, don't just assume they produced good code.

Training, postprocessor's & maintenance fees to name just a few.

Need to be very specific on what type of work you and machines you have now and what your companies future growth plans are.

2 or 3 Axis lathes? 2 or 2-1/2 Axis Mills? 3 or more Axis Simultaneous Profiling? Or a mixture of any of the above?

Not sure what this means.

Tom

Reply to
brewertr

That's not what I read, did I miss a post?

He said his guy on the floor programs at the machine (Hurco) and doesn't have much experience with offline CAM. He was looking for advise on purchasing a CAM system. he didn't say anything about taking the programming away from his guy and doing it himself.

I don't hate programming at the machines, IMO it's just not cost effective in most situations.

7 p's Jon, Proper Prior Planning Prevents Piss Poor Performance.

He stated he is not a machinist and I suspect he has no experience with CAM. I didn't see anywhere that he eluded to becoming a CAM programmer, he was just looking for recommendations on CAM packages that work within SolidWorks.

Tom

Reply to
brewertr

By asking for advise.

If so it seems logical he would want a CAM program to run within SolidWorks to generate G-Code.

You can ask but why would you care? It shouldn't have any bearing on your recommendations.

Again you can ask but why would you care? It should have no bearing on our recommendations that I can see.

I already made my personal preferences known to the OP, but it still has no bearing on my CAM program recommendations to him. I believe in training and promoting from within. Even though the initial training costs for the CAM package may be higher it is recouped quickly and its less risky than hiring a new person for a key position. Promoting from within has other positives associated with it but that's for another thread.

Turn the tables, find the best CAM package for the job that takes all the variables and parameters into consideration and justify the expense.

CAM Jon, they already have CAD, they just have to insure they buy a CAM program that can use what is generated by the CAD package.

Could be, but I would still check all options before making a final decision.

A company should justify the cost of a CAM package just like a machine or any other tool. Lower initial cost is often not the lowest cost option over the long run.

That would be one CAM package for them to check out.

I have no idea why you still link to that page Jon, it just astounds me that you do.

Tom

Reply to
brewertr

Thanks Tom,

Well here goes ignoring everyone else,

No, I am not a machinist, never was and never want to be. I use Solidworks office pro in an office , nice and clean :-)

The machines we use, are old apart from one, lol

Harrison Alpha 550 plus Lathe with a Fanuc controller Bridgeport series II sing Heidenhain controller Mazak quickturn Lathe using mazatrol T-1 Euromac cx1000/30 Gate eclipse vmc 610 using anilam 6000M

Basically I want a do it button, lol

Draw in Solidworks- down load to machine, A skilled and trained machinist to load the job and tooling, after which he/she presses a button, job done.

Too simple I know, lol

But hey, I can dream!

We had a var from camworks and to be honest, he expected me, to know what I wanted! Never heard from him ever again. Excuse me, but that is why I, got the so called experts in. It's a bit like a guy making brain surgery tools and being able to do the surgery too!

Reply to
pete

That is my preferred environment for programming CAD or CAM. Nice to have all my reference materials at hand.

There is the rub, when buying machinery I like to standardize the controllers. You are going to have to negotiate 5 custom post processors with your CAM VAR.

Don't we all, the closest I have seen to a "do it" button is SolidWorks 2007 running CamWorks 2007. I even posted my first experience in this group, back in January I thing, subject was something like SolidWorks & CamWorks a pleasant surprise.

If you are going to program CAM they need to know something about the Machining Process, Work Holding, fixturing, Tooling, Part Zero (for the CNC machine), Feeds and Speeds otherwise you won't consistently produce good code for the machine.

It would be simple for the Machinist, not for you, someone with no machining experience.

Yep, but dreaming will not make program good parts.

LOL, not a very good salesman then....LOL.

Yep, he could see the writing on the wall, DANGER.

Experts running the other way to never hear from them again should tell you something.

If by that you mean not a good idea, I agree.

Tom

Reply to
brewertr

Jon,

You mean where this "Complete Idiot" agreed with you, where he said "I agree 100% about his comments in the interview."?

Is agreeing with you what makes him a "complete idiot" Jon?

LOL, Tom

Reply to
brewertr

Programmer should check to see the program is correct not the setup guy.

A statement like that will piss off any machinist. It is disrespectful and demeans their skills & function. There is a huge difference between a machinist and a machine operator.

You challenged Cliff to give something of substance. You asked me, there is a difference.

Well since I am a machinist by trade I was about to slam you with that one....LOL.

Tom

Reply to
brewertr

Damn Cliff you surprised me, with a couple of minor exceptions that was a good post, even ON TOPIC.

Tom

Reply to
brewertr

My point was to take the programming offline, off the shop floor and into the office. My thoughts about programming at the control have not changed, I don't like it, I don't believe it is cost effective in most situations.

Maybe for workload but not just to be able to run a CAM plug-in.

A valid point.

Tom

Reply to
brewertr

Thanks Tom, Cliff and Jon, some great points, I think it is time to get down and dirty!

I am really glad of this thread as I wanted honest opinions and got them.

Now that I have a great list, of things to look to for, I have two questions left.

1, Will the machinist(s) have to, (or is it preferred), be trained, (as well as I), on the cam software, or can he just look as the code generated, (as he stifles his giggles), and work out, (skill part), what is required?

2, Can the code generated by the cam package, (G code for example), be easily be read, (after cam training and with working with the machinist), to reproduce a cad model?

No, I do not want more work, unless it saves time overall. No, I don't want to take or do the machinist's job, just to make his job easier for him. No the machinist does not know anything about Solidworks, would it be useful to train him? Oops! three questions, lol

No, I do not expect to learn cam quickly and/or easily.

I know nothing about cam, but neither did anyone here until they learnt it.

We all have to start somewhere! :)

Reply to
pete

Yep

A qualifying statement, you get good g-code when the model/process is programmed correctly, you get bad g-code when the model/process is programmed in-correctly.

Machine communications?

A minor machine communication issue IMO and not specifically related to CAM.

Tom

Reply to
brewertr

PS,

If I have upset or degraded anyone, then you have my apologies!

That wasn't the reason for my questions and comments but to get some useful information.

I know there is some great skill out there, but personal issues, seem to cloud the intentions.

Respect!

Reply to
pete

My position has not changed Cliff. I had it all along, you just went off on one of your normal misguided rants.

Tom

Reply to
brewertr

Clueless rant again Cliff.....LOL......don't listen to the voices in your head that say you know something about programming a CNC.

Tom

Reply to
brewertr

I knew it all along Cliff but nice try to revise history Cliff.

My recommendation to Jon was to use NC-Plot for his particular situation. That recommendation was based upon Jon saying there was NO CAD or CAM data for their G-Code programs. NO CAD/CAM files means the files are NOT ASSOCIATIVE meaning YOU CAN'T LOSE SOMETHING YOU NEVER HAD CLIFF.

I only recommended Jon reverse the existing code they have so he can edit and verify toolpath offline and save the original code & toolpath as a baseline of how things are currently done at his new job.

Tom

Reply to
brewertr

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