Smarteam vs Conisio - Where are the Critics

There is plenty on the NG regarding Conisio. Smarteam, well, it's absence should speak volumes.

We have used Conisio for a few years and it works well for us. Do a Google search through this newsgroup on Conisio and you will find several discussions. Then if you have specific questions, ask away.

Smarteam I don't know anything about.

WT

Mark,

If you are evaluating these two packages, you should also take a look at DBWorks.

The system is database driven and has BOM capabilities as well as Workflow for Document Approvals. (These are just a few of their features.)

We are almost through the final approval process to purchase this product.

The only down side I can find to it is that it only has Direct CAD integrations (parts, assemblies, & drawings hierarchy) for SolidWorks and Inventor.

There have been several posts over the last few years regarding DBWorks that you can read up on.

Good Luck!

Best Regards,

Ricky Jordan CSWP Dynetics, Inc.

Em wrote:

snipped-for-privacy@emeryinternational-dot-com.no-spam.invalid (Em) wrote in news:voydnbYumPFwWBXfRVn snipped-for-privacy@giganews.com:

Well, the DBWorks salesmen are everywhere, so I won't even bother with that.

SmarTeam is a very customizable, extremely expensive and very difficult to maintain system. They don't keep up with the SolidWorks versions very well, and I'm constantly hearing of people working in old versions of SW because of ST. When I used it, it was difficult to keep SW running because it all crashed so much. I've heard a lot of stories about needing to hire a consultant for 10 days just to upgrade you from one version to the next. Right now I'm in the process of migrating a company from ST to PDMWorks. They didn't use any of the functions of ST that aren't also in PDMW. Anyway, looks like a big waste of money to me. Of course there are companies that have been successful with it, but all they do is throw money.

Conisio is an interesting product. It integrates to just about anything through Windows Explorer or the Open dialog. A few years back we evaluated it and pretty much shredded the demo guy, but the software has come a long way since then. I think they have a workflow module. ECN routing is a huge benefit of using higher level PDM. It is the one PDM product that is gaining a lot of momentum, and generates a lot of positive feedback. If you're familiar with PDM already, it's pretty easy to learn.

Let us know how your search goes...

matt

Not everyone is a DBWorks salesman..... and I can see that Matt really likes PDMWorks.. and that's ok. The best thing to do is get an evaluation of the different PDM software's and try them out and see which one YOU like best! Go to their web pages and download an evaluation, if either one will not let you test if for free first, then why would you want it?

I agree. We are looking at PDM ourselves. One of the things that I realized is that the system we now use, we'll call him George, needs to be gotten into shape to even use the discipline of PDM. So on the one hand I am looking at all the claims and capabilities, entering them into a spreadsheet and at the same time using that information to shift our current system to the point where it can be automated. I wouldn't recommend any one system based on claims, especially those I can't verify, understand or see the need for. I also have to look at ease of use, PDMWorks is pretty good there. Another thing I do with the spreadsheet of claims is look for critical features that would knock one package out at the outset. This saves time by not having to look further. For example, at this point in our situation, dealing with design tables and configuration based parts is a big deal. PDMWorks would have trouble treating a configuration part on equal footing with a standalone part document. But for many people and maybe for our designers PDMWorks would be a good pick.

"Wilma" wrote in news:_Q9ie.17729$ye1.8577@okepread06:

You know, you posted that same thing the only other time you posted to this NG.

PDM is a very touchy thing to evaluate. The best way to evaluate PDM is training, especially if you're not really PDM savvy to begin with. It's a big enough purchase that paying for training in a couple of products is well worth the expense. It's completely unrealistic to expect anyone to be able to adequately evaluate something as complex as a PDM product just by messing around with it. Some vendors will allow you to take training, and only pay for it if you buy the product.

Software that converts jpgs to gifs is ok to download and test. PDM is not.

Matt

And with the training comes an understanding of what PDM is. Many places have not thought through the way they manage files past what worked 40 years ago for paper drawings. Those methods worked with paper, but the electronic age has added a lot of complexity not the least of which is that two people can make changes to a copy of the same document simultaneously and then somehow without thinking imagine that when they both save their work it will magically merge into one document reflecting both persons changes. This may sound ludicrous, but I have seen and heard this from intelligent people over and over.

Another thing to seriously consider is if the solution is for an engineering department or if the whole enterprise itself will use the PDM system.

Enterprise wide systems are a bit more comprehensive and generally take a bigger push to get established, not to underestimate the resistance of engineers who are comfortable with "what works and has worked forever". In either case, everyone needs to be prepared to change their methods of work and no PDM system, whether departmental or company wide will be simple to implement. Will the PDM need hooks into existing ERP or not? What the heck will we do with legacy data? On & on & on , , ,

Biff will still desperately need to keep 10 copies of his latest project strewn across 6 different network computers with multiple backups which may or may not be the current file (you are just supposed to know which one is current). Eventually, if the project is not actually killed by everyone's lack of enthusiasm for the tradition killing PDM paradigm shift, they might even come to wonder how they ever survived without PDM.

In any case, it is a cultural shift and a little shock to SOP - that's the really big problem that I have seen. Picking "the right system" is the relatively easy part, implementing it is another game.

Managing CAD files for a few engineers is vastly different from managing everyone's data and the tools to do each are not necessarily the same tool, or do not require the same "resource" commitment. PDM itself is an emerging technology and what seems cool today will perhaps not be likable tomorrow - like everything related to data, on the day of inception, a PDM system begins to generate History and that history is the "problem child legacy data" a decade down the road. The real problem with the lower end PDM systems is that they have very poor scalability and cannot later be easily merged with a enterprise level PDM solution. The easy entry price (low cost) is very attractive, but they have no real "future". Conversely, a "real" solution is extremely expensive almost prohibitive and is not easy to initiate - this is a classic catch 22 - Cheap and Unexpandable VS. Expensive and Scalable.

I would seriously ask myself and my managers what the organisations long term PDM goals are and try to pick a solution which aligned with that, could ideally dovetail into it and give strong consideration to the idea that "today's" system might only be an intermediate solution. If PDM for the enterprise is not even on the radar, then you have your decade.

Later,

SMA

With due respect to Matt, and as I stated last time he really likes PDMWorks. I have been around CAD, EDM, PLM, and PDM since the very beginning, in fact when I started as an engineer we used ink on velum and linen. The CAD computers took up a huge room and if someone passed gas in the room it would crash. I once worked for the father of CAD Dr. Patrick Hanratty who wrote the first CAD system.. The early PDM's have had the same growing pains and were very complicated. You needed to spend millions to implement, and even then I know some companies that never really realized their potential. ( some still are this way, ask Matt about their attempt with smarteam)

Today some of them have come a long way, you can take them out of the box, load them and start working without having to customize them. Some can achieve this, but do not let you grow and customize them to fully meet all of your needs. The best way to see which one is best for you is to get an evaluation, but to also spend the time to allow them to be demonstrated to you. Having a demonstration and then downloading an evaluation copy you will quickly see which ones meet your criteria. With all the ones you download I'm sure they will have help files and a number you can call to answer questions.

But even before you get a demo or and evaluation, stop and spend some time to write your list of what you want from a PDM.

I.E.

Is it fully integrated into the CAD that you use, or is it a generic system that needs translators.

Does it handle configuration files.

Does it offer ECN control the way you want to do it.

Do you want to have Workflow with a sign-off procedure.

E.T.C.

It is good to hear everyone's point of view on which system they like the best. But we all have different needs and are in different industries. As an engineers I have for many years listen to advise from all directions, but when it comes to the crunch, I would look at all the facts on what I wanted to achieve, look at my different options and then decide. It's your testicles connected to the electrical switch, not ours.

When you go and buy your next car, you will stop and test drive it first? Right?

Good luck with which ever one you do choose..... And I hope this is helpful to you.

Wilma

Matt,

Just to clear things up a bit here, I am NOT a salesman for DBWorks. I used to work with a SolidWorks Reseller as an AE and YES that reseller did sell DBWorks. That is actually how I became familiar with the product. I never supported the product or did any implementations though.

With the company I am working for now, we have been investigating PDM software solutions over the past eight months. I have looked at almost everything out there (SmarTeam, Teamcenter, DBWorks, & Conisio just to name a few.) DBWorks does everything we need a PDM system to do and is a fraction of the cost of MANY of the other systems. We are an ISO

9001 company and have many structured procedures associated with ECR/ECO/ECN, so a package that has great workflow capabilities and can be easily customized is key.

I just thought others might be interested in looking at it since many companies need the higher end capability, yet don't have $50,000 plus budgets.

Conisio seems to be a good product. I have played with it a bit back in my AE days. It does have an interesting approach with the whole Window Explorer integration. Our company's customization requirements were what knocked that package out of the running.

Best Regards,

Ricky Jordan CSWP Dynetics, Inc. Huntsville, AL

Did you look at ProductCenter? If so, just wondering if you had a favorable opinion. It was software I was looking at to implement (along with SmarTeam & Windchill).

My company is implementing ProductCenter. It hasn't been a very happy experience so far for the designers. Manufacturing chose it with almost no input from Design, which got us off on the wrong foot. I'm not at all impressed by the SolidWorks integration. The user interface is clumsy and maddeningly inconsistent. I'm able to do most of the things I need to do now without a lot of problems, but some of the other SW users are still having quite a lot of trouble.

The SofTech people are very nice and seem to be trying hard to support us, but I think the software has a lot of development ahead before I would think highly of it.

My only other experience with PDM software was with Activault. It was much easier to learn and use, but also a lot less capable of expansion.

Jerry Steiger Tripod Data Systems "take the garbage out, dear"

Hi Jerry -

Sounds like a flashback to my experiences with Product Center. Lost of initial trouble.

I administered and used the product and have to say that in the end, I fell in love with it. I designed things, worked with MRP & administered the PDM, so I saw the process from many perspectives. Having a good PDM system is essential and you have a good one there. Unfortunately a lot hinges on the implementation and how it is rolled out (i.e. Rammed through or executed with a plan).

The support personnel were phenominal and the product itself became (for me) a very integral and useful part of my work.

I think that you have a pretty good piece of software, just that it's not super easy to implement and there are some "gotchas" that you need to learn to manage, however, it will also not run out of capabilites after 3 months - that is the true upside. A lot of the trouble we got into centered around users not being aware the best way to use the PDM system and sometimes the "default" model it operated in was harmful. Eventually it all flowed and worked (ok almost) "rock solid" once we cut our teeth.

Later,

Sean

ms,

Yes, I did briefly look at ProductCenter. The product itself looked pretty good. Cost and customization were a few concerns. There are a other concerns I had with it which probably wouldn't be appropriate to discuss here.

Our PDM needs were really more product design driven since we already have a good ERP system that is going live in about a month. They did seem to have some nice BOM options within this system which would benefit a company wanting to use the package for some manufacturing functions.

We also have a user here who used one of their products 5 years ago in an integration with ProE. To say the least, they had a really bad experience. I'm sure probably most of that has been re-written though.

Overall, I don't have an unfavorable opinion at all of the package. I would probably rank it 3rd or 4th out of all the packages I looked at. It just didn't quite fit our needs as well as DBWorks.

Best Regards,

Ricky Jordan

thanks for the feedback guys. We use both ProE and Solidworks, so I was looking for something that would handle both. What I found were the higher cost systems: SmarTeam, Windchill and ProductCenter. Are there other PDM software that will handle both ProE and Solidworks?

The only other ones that I can think of that handles both ProE & SolidWorks would be TeamCenter & Agile. I don't know much about either since they were waaaay out of my budget.

Good luck with your search.

Ricky Jordan