AHM/IHC GG1 to EP3 Kitbash Question

Have there been any MRC/RMC/Whatever articles on "kitbashing" an AHM or IHC GG-1 into a New Haven EP-3 "Flat Bottom"?
Len
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Not that I've ever seen. Some folks have made EP-4's and EF-3's out of GG-1 drives, but a Flatbottom? Nope, haven't seen an article for that. The NHRHTA had articles about turning the Lionel electric (yes, HO) into a proper EF-4, turning an FP7 into an FL9, and even cutting up an H24-66 into an H16-44, but nothing to do with EP-3's. It's probably impossible, but I would think about the BLI GG-1 as a starting point if only because it's so much nicer than that AHM/IHC piece of junk. I have one of these AHM junkers, and the universal joints are springs(!). Not to mention the giant flanges, etc. Ick. FYI: Try asking on the NHRHTA's New Haven Forum at www.nhrhta.org
Paul A. Cutler III ************* Weather Or No Go New Haven *************
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an
EF-3's out of

for that. The

into a

H24-66 into

GG-1 as a

AHM/IHC piece of

joints are

www.nhrhta.org
Pac Man,
Thanks, I'll try the NHRHTA site.
I have an IHC 'Premier' GG-1 that I may use for this project. As you mention, the drive is some what better than the old AHM chassis. I was really looking to use a chassis I've already got on hand for this project. And the link 'Big Rich' provided has some good info on doing this converstion.
Len
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This may help somewhat: http://www.railroad.net/forums/viewtopic.php?tB76&sid c88fbe967c65993d93b3a8f9f462ab
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an
http://www.railroad.net/forums/viewtopic.php?tB76&sid c88fbe967c65993d93b3a8f9f462ab
Thanks for the link. The info here is very helpful!
Len
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Speaking of more...
http://www.railroad.net/forums/viewtopic.php?tB76&sid e01b4bdfef39d4fdb56507b2e2d9dd
From here:
http://www.thetrainshoppe.com/shop/product_info.php?products_idC
(I realize this is for a GG-1 but it's info none the less):
" The GG-1's incredible performance record is probably due to the fact that it had to compete for its spot on the Pennsy roster. When the PRR was in the market for a new high-speed passenger locomotive, it was given two prototypes to consider. The GG-1, based on the New Haven EP3, defeated the R1 in the contest to determine which engine Pennsy would order, and so began the engine's unparalleled dominance. The 139-unit GG-1 fleet was built between 1934-44, primarily for passenger work, though during WWII and in the 1950s when passenger train miles were reduced the engines did dual duty, pulling freight trains when needed. The GG-1 survived longer than any other locomotive design, lasting well into the 1980s, and survived both the railroad that created it and that road's successor, Penn Central."
This from:
http://www.tomswift.info/homepage/eltrain.html
"Baldwin built the famed EP-1 (1906), EF-1 (1912) and EP-2 (1923) box cab electric locomotives for the New York, New Haven and Hartford Railroad. Baldwin also delivered the EP-3 box cab electric locomotives to the Milwaukee Road for use on their line between Harlowton, Montana and Avery, Idaho."
More as i Find It...
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New Haven Railroad Hysterical and Technical Association
www.nhrhta.org
Here's their contact page. Maybe one or more of them can help?!
www.nhrhta.org/htdocs/contacts.htm
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GG-1 Page but here are 2 up close Quill Drive shots!
http://www.hebners.net/amtrak/amtGG1/gg1driverb.jpg
http://www.hebners.net/amtrak/amtGG1/gg1drivera.jpg
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On 9/21/2007 3:32 PM Big Rich Soprano spake thus:

So how does that work? What are those thingamabobs* in the wheel openings; are they part of the drive?
* That's a technical term, folks.
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On 9/21/2007 4:17 PM David Nebenzahl spake thus:

Let me take a stab at my own question: they look like some kind of shock absorbers; I'll bet the dark round things at the end are made of rubber. Am I warm?

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No, they are called "Spider and Spring Cup Connections" and are explained thusly: "The bull gears and driving wheels were connected by a spider and spring cup arrangement..." (I'm assuming that they allow the wheels to flex so they can track better this allowing better traction like the Quill Drive does... More as i learn it...)
This from: Steamlocomotive.com http://www.steamlocomotive.com/GG1/quill.shtml
"The Pennsylvania Railroad GG1: Quill Drive"
"The six driving axles of the GG1 were powered by twin traction motors through double-end quill drives. The motors were rated at 385 HP each, thus providing 770 HP per axle or a total of 4620 HP.
Each driving axle was surrounded by a rotating quill (a hollow tube) that was connected to two large gears, called bull gears, that were almost the same size as the drivers. They were centered on the axle, and connected, one on each end, to the quill. This quill and gear assembly looked like a large cable spool with the drive axle going through the spindle hole and it was almost as wide as the distance between the driving wheels.
The traction motors were double-ended having a shaft and pinion on each end. Two motors were bolted together and attached to a bearing assembly which allowed the motors to ride on the quill. The motors with their shafts were designed to fit on the quill in such a way as to allow the pinions to mesh with the bull gears.
Mounting the motors on the quill allowed the driving wheels and axle to move in reaction to track conditions without affecting the meshing of the pinions and gears. The traction motors turned the bull gears that reached into and turned the driving wheels. The bull gears and driving wheels were connected by a spider and spring cup arrangement."
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Almost the same article with the EP-3's mentioned
"The Pennsylvania Railroad GG1: The New Haven EP-3a"
http://www.steamlocomotive.com/GG1/ep3a.shtml
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
And this from Wikipedia so it's mostly true and has stains on the bag to indicate freshness...
"A quill drive is a mechanism that allows a drive shaft to shift its position (either axially, radially, or both) relative to its driving shaft. It consists of a hollow driving shaft (the quill) with a driven shaft inside it. The two are connected in some fashion which permits the required motion..."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quill_drive
and a great picture!
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/ef/MILW_Quill_half_with_motors.jpg
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David Nebenzahl wrote:

SWAG coming!
I believe what you are looking at, are the actual outputs of the 'drive'. those "thingamabobs" being housings for 'shock absorber' thingys*
* Another technical term.
Those 'thingys' being as simple as 'rubber bushings' or as complicated as 'shock absorbers' like used in the suspension of your car (different shape, but same methods used).
This helps to separate the 'motor' from the 'shocks' that the wheel gets due to rough track.
End SWAG
If I'm wrong, I'm sure someone will correct things.
Chuck D.
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David Nebenzahl wrote:

"Quill drive" has a hollow axle (quill) rigidly mounted in the frame surrounding the axle that the wheels are mounted on. The drive is by gear from the motor to the rigid axle. A "star" with cups is mounted on the end of the quill, which meets springs (normally coils) mounted on modified spoke cups. The springs' main function is to allow the wheels and axles to move vertically, but they also give a small amount of load shock absorbtion in the circular sense. The "thingamabobs" are the opposing cups which hold the springs. (coils, rubber blocks, tennis balls ...) As you might imagine, the coil springs have minimal tension sideways, so the up/down movement of the wheel has relatively little restiction from the springs but the torque is distributed through all 5. (or however many there are)
Greg.P.
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Greg, What you've described fits the New Haven electric's drive to a T. Here's an example of what you were talking about (but the NH only had one gear, IIRC, so I don't know who had this example)
http://1stclass.mylargescale.com/BryanSmith/quilldrive.jpg
However, the GG-1 pics shown in the above post show a slightly different quill. It appears in the photos that the quill's "springs" are not actually connected to the driver, instead they simply slap back and forth within the spokes. My guess is that these provide no shock absorption for the drivers to avoid jostling the motors with track irregularities. It appears that these only provide circular torque absorption and nothing else. Your thoughts?
Paul A. Cutler III ************* Weather Or No Go New Haven *************
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Pac Man wrote:

Yupp, that's just like the NZR's quill drives, except that we have a narrower gauge and the axle goes all the way from wheel to wheel! (just joking :-)

The driving axle still needs vertical movement in relation to the electric motor and I don't like the sound of the quill springs slapping loosely between the driving wheel spokes =8^] I had something like that on an old Triumph motorcycle "sprung-hub" rear wheel once the rubbers wore out - it wasn't nice and I'd guess it would be even worse on a loco wheel, given the forces involved!
Greg.P. NZ
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David Nebenzahl wrote:

They look like they may function as torque dampers.
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Ding ding ding!..
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I found this on a totally unrelated site.
http://www.practicalmachinist.com/cgi-bin/ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f;t3132;p=0
See the last sentences in particular!:
"Regarding the chain wheels with springs. Railfans will recognize them a part of the "quill drive" used in most New Haven Rail Road electric locomotives, as well as the Pennsylvania Railroad GG-1 electrics.
The weight of the locomotive was transferred to the axles by spring mounted journal boxes at the ends of the axles. A hollow shaft, called a quill, surrounded the axle, with clearance between the axle and the inside of the quill. The quill carried a gear which was driven by pinions mounted on the driving motor or motors (A very compact arrangement resulted from mounting two motors driving one quill). The quill was supported by bearings mounted to the motor frame, so that the gears stayed in mesh. Each end of the quill carried a wheel with springs attached. The driving wheels had a series of spokes, which formed pockets, into which the springs fitted. The springs absorbed torque pulsations. More importantly, the springs allowed the axle to move independently of the locomotive frame. The quill was fixed to the locomotive frame. The axle,mounted on springs, could move in the space inside the quill, and could accommodate variations in track."
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Well the thingamabobs are indeed part of the drive and when Mrs Magilicutty's wash is out and all the stars align, if enough power is applied to those thingamabobs they push on the horizontal what'sitz to motivate the treddle! This in turn perpetuates the massive geodesic parabola's into motion. Once they are set in motion it's all down here from the hill folks!
(A libretto is available in the lobby)
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On 9/22/2007 10:17 AM Big Rich Soprano spake thus:

"LAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA [keerash!*]!!!!"
*- sound of breaking glass
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