[Fwd: Re: Gorre and Daphetid]

You're wrong; the last count is 18-1; we're closing on 90% with a very small statistical population. Not 99%, but plenty enough to show you're in the minority.

I'd like to see the results of at least 100 people.

This is not a good thing, this voting business. There is no way that any of you know what you are voting on other than emotion and a few *very* professional photos. I've been there and seen the thing in the flesh; operated it, and I cannot vote. It is simply not possible, because the G&D was not a simple thing. It is not simply a case of good railroad VS not good railroad. To try to put it in such a perspective is folly. The only just thing is to view the railroad in the context of its own time and then form an opinion. If you did not live then, and if you did not model during that era, then you can only guess. And fellas, that's not good enough.

Froggy abstains.

On Sun, 9 May 2004 01:33:28 UTC, Froggy@The Pond.com wrote: 2000

I had just started modeling when the G&D became known. It was an inspiration and quite a contrast with most of the modeling available at the time. I was fortunate enough to be around a number of modelers who worked in the movie industry creating on-screen illusions. I learned from them. I was privileged to see Paul Detlefsen's O gauge layout which was also inspiring. Not as much of a caricature as the G&D but still a major contrast with most of the layouts of the time. Paul also worked in the movie industry.

I operated on Ed Ravenscroft's Glencoe, Skokie Valley. Unfortunately it was in its declining days and operation was not the most reliable. The scenery was laughable by today's standards but it was built for operation. Once you got your head into operating the scenery almost disappeared. It hooked me on operation. Was it a great railroad? No. Did it do its job? Oh, yes.

I am on the periphery of a local modular (FREMO) group. I think their modeling is excellent and the layouts operate. I operate on another layout that is slowly being sceniced (although I try to ignore the scenery). It provides a lot of operating interest and keeps us amused for several hours.

I think it is a fool's errand to define a layout as great. There are layouts that appeal to us or inspire us and/or teach us. There are others that don't. Some blaze new trails and others follow. Take them as they are. Be inspired and learn what you can. Then apply it to your situation.

Indeed it is. It wouldn't matter if 100,000 people voted in favour of the blasted layout - it still wouldn't make me change my mind and drcide I liked/was impressed/was inspired by it.

And a note to Brian; I reposted my original vote, at which time only 16 votes had been cast. And you may have guessed that I couldn't give a toss if I'm in the minority.

I knew that from our earlier conversations on other topics; you don't seem to give a toss about anything.

Poor dilusional boy, all on his own, no one has ever befriended him, not since someone took a bite out of his brother, Fig.

Brian, I think the best thing to do with Little Mark is let him go blow his diggerydoo some place else.

(Sigh) And I was SO looking forward to his pictures. Too bad; if he's half as good as he thinks, we all could have learned something.

Salvé> This is not a good thing, this voting business. There is no way that any of you know

Dear Froggy, I think you are missing the point :) I envy that you have seen and operated this layout , but the point is this, Quite simply was this an inspirational layout? so in that case the answer can only be a yes, I believe that this applies only to the later versions as the earlier ones were not good, but this was back in the late 40´s ! if a layout inspired modellers then it rightly deserves a place in the international hall of fame :) Beowulf

I too am always looking to see "good layouts", that is how we improve ours. However in this case Brian I think it is a case "legend in his own mind" only. I still personally think he is ashamed to show others what he has created.

the G&D primarily because it is a classic and also a nice little layout, BUT, wanted to stretch it out to a 4 x 8 instead of the 4 x 7 original, and also, add a few and delete a few little pieces of track and/or switches. Would he be able to even say that hs'e modeling the G&D? Or is he simply modeling a bastard step brother of the G&D?

Certainly. Before I learned about real life on the railroad, I thought it was the best ever. I was awed by the photography and overawed by the scenery. But I was young and easily awed in those days. Today I look back and am still awed by John's talent. My finest and best efforts are no better than his cast-off rejects when it comes to scenery, lighting, mood and effect. His operations, however, would never compare with mine. So then, from one point of view we are from completely different schools. Never the less, I did not inspire John, he inspired me. It was the G&D as much as anything that cemented me into the structure of the model railroading hobby. That my interest took a different path in the end in no way diminishes the worth of John's accomplishments. One more comment with regard to the caricature portrayed by the Gorre & Daphetid. One of the things that I enjoy doing is white water rafting. One of my favorite rivers is the Gauley River in West Virginia. There are some spots on the Gauley and also on the Russell Fork in Kentucky that look like the prototypes for some of the G&D scenery. Not all of it was that far fetched.

Actually, The G&D that everyone views as the work of art filled a room approximately 33' by 23'. The 6'-8" by 3'-7" first G&D track plan was very simple and nothing special. It would make a basic beginner layout today. Making it a 4x8 layout would not take much alteration, just increase the radius of the curves to 20" or 22" and possibly add 6-10" length to the center of the layout. It would still be a double track loop with turntable and roundhouse, and 2 sidings.

That is the whole point of this discussion Froggy, the G&D was an inspirational model RR. John has undoubtedly influenced thousands (maybe millions) of hobbyists over the last 50+ years. That is what we are trying to say, dispite the nay saying of one young fellow from down under.

I don't think you can say that about the early layout. I have a copy of a 1951 Model Railroad Handbook in which the original layout was featured. The text in the article says ".....John has built a wealth of accurate detail which, without crowding, imparts an unusual realism", and the photographs in the article back up that statement. Perhaps the layout didn't have the operational possibilities of the final version of the G&D, but it was possibly a more realistic portrayal of a railroad than the later versions, and it had obviously caught the eye of A.C.Kalmbach for the injection of a photographer's imaginations into the creation of the layout.

Jim.

Do TRY to pay more attention to what is actually written, old moose rooter, and less to your fevered imagination. Nobody, least of of all myself, is saying that the G&D WASN'T inspirational to many, many hobbyists. What I AM saying is that the G&D DIDN'T inspire me. NO amount of your specious bleating will alter my position. What I cannot understand is why such an innocuous statement as that should be regarded as being so contentious. Or to put it another way, why are you so determined to enforce some sort of unanimity of opinion about this layout? Are you that much of a slave to conformity?

How could I possibly help you improve on perfection, moose rooter? Your six feet of cork roadbed and trackplan are shing exemplars to us all.

How could I possibly help you improve on perfection, moose rooter? Your six feet of cork roadbed and trackplan are shining exemplars for us all.

Not true, as you are well aware. Sadly, many of the participants in this newsgroup are incapable of letting their case stand on it's own merits, resorting instead to exaggeration, distortion, or outright lies.

Brian, just ignore the poor boy. He cannot carry on an "adult" conversation, without resorting to name calling. His is your typical "Rebel Without A Clue" er "Cause". Whatever you say, he will disagree with it. Whatever you feel, he will arbitrarily take the opposing view and then when it looks like you are winning the discussion based on logic, he resorts to name calling and loses all his credibility.

His insistence that I am somehow inferior because when I last stated about starting my new layout that all I had was my quickly drawn trackplan and 50% of the subroadbed laid and 6' of cork roadbed laid. At least that is 3 more things than he has claimed. Unfortunately, real life has interferred, I am far to busy right now running my company to do more. However, I did get more of the subroadbed built today and I will be off to my LHS on Wednesday to pick up a box of N Scale cork. Possibly by next weekend I might even have

Either way it is more than he has accomplished.