NCE or Digitrax

That's more a function of the decoder documentation than the DCC system-- If the documentation only provides values in hex, then you'll need to deal with hex in the process of programming that decoder on ANY system, even if only to convert it to decimal to enter it.

For example, consider the NCE DA-SR documentation (to use a booklet I have handy). They provide the decimal values for the bit-weights for the various lighting functions on Page 5. Regardless of which DCC system one uses, most people can more easily add up the decimal values in the left-hand column in the table than the hex ones on the right. I've been using the "add the decimal values" method for years, then entering the value directly into a DT300. No hex involved, at all.

I'm just getting tired of this outdated nonsense that swears that Digitrax users have to virtually think in hexadecimal. It isn't any more true than it is for any other system.

-fm Webmaster, Rails on Wheels, Washtenaw County, Michigan's HO Modular Club, at

The address in the header of this message is deliberately bogus to foil address-harvesters. See my web sites for my real address.

Let's hope NCE improves their duplex system, as well. The delays in communication are so frustrating they almost have me going back to tethered use!

Actually, I should qualify my statement above... The techniques that require an understanding of hex are used in programming DigiTrax decoders. They are not related to the latest DigiTrax hardware. I don't recall any hex involvement when programming Lenz or NCE decoders with DigiTrax hardware.

Frank Eva Digital Railroader

Digitrax controllers control TWO trains on the same throttle. A set of controls on the left and another set of controls on the right. The button panels below are shared. To do what you want, you'd just ignore one train and then later, ignore the other train.

CTucker NY

If you are only running one at a time, it's just a matter of selecting the loco or consist you want, which releases the other one. Most of what we're talking about is keeping more than one train going at a time. The Digitrax throttles - the DT100, 300, and 400 series each have two throttle knobs so you can control two trains at the same time. The NCE system has one, but has a "recall" function that lets you toggle between 2, or up to 6 selected trains. I found more than 2 to be unmanageable. When I'm running two separate trains, even if I'm by myself, I feel more comfortable having two throttles with my NCE/Sys1. With Digitrax, two is ok. But you can always run any loco with any throttle at any time, just a matter of releasing one and acquiring the other. I'm not sure what happens with Digitrax if you release a moving train. With my Sys1, it keeps on going I think... with nobody in control. Not a good thing, but basically the way to avoid it is "don't do that".

Andy

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The wacky part is, unless you punch the recall button, you are dealing with only one slot. So if I select loco A, and then select loco B, I've just replaced it in the same slot, and the second slot is unused. So before selecting B if you punch recall, then you get an empty slot for B, and you hit it again you will get A.

I don't think it's a very good design. I think recall is the wrong word, it sort of implies a LIFO stack, which it most certainly isn't, it's a rotisserie. It's also slow in response (probably even slower in wireless mode). I really just don't like to use it. I feel the NCE system is superior in every other way, especially the selection and consisting procedure, the UI is more straightforward. But even if I could get used to the craziness of the DT100 (no longer necessary for new users, since it is obsolete), I'd still prefer NCE just because it doesn't flake out on _any_ of my locomotives, whereas Digitrax wacks out on close to 50% of them, especially if they have Wangrow decoders.

Andy

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I had no idea this was considered a "feature". Five minutes? I can understand whacking an idle throttle after some period of time, but when that throttle is attached to a *moving* train, the system has no business purging it. Ever.

I figure its just a matter of time. If we're lucky there will be an upgrade path.

Ok, quick: how do you program a DH163 for non-directional lighting? F0 controls forward headlight, period, regardless of direction. F1 controls rear light, period, regardless of direction. Yellow wire not used. No function remapping. Quick, not from the book, but from scratch - factory settings (use the reset, because most decoders aren't factory from the factory), then convert to non direction lighting.

We use helpers at Andre's for the helix, aka "Erlanger Hill" but as on the prototype, it's a dedicated separate job, run by a different guy on his own throttle. Usually it's a Vader.

I haven't seen a large scale Lenz system in operation. Only small ones or the Atlas version. I've never even run one using 4-digit addressing. I pretty much dropped Lenz out of the picture because I couldn't find anyone anywhere to really give me a good run through on it.

Andy

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The only reason I can see for these delays is retry errors - it must be taking multiple attempts to transmit a command. Based on what these devices actually have to get done, their response should be instantaneous. So the delays are either built-in to get around other issues, retry errors, or overhead issues. But nothing about the soft designs of these systems indicates a high overhead, but then again, most of the extra power you pay for today in ANY computer system is consumed by overhead. At least if you're a Windblows user.

Andy

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I have been monkeying around with hex since I was knee-high to an IBM

360. It doesn't bother me. What does bother me is the absolutely positively dreadful Digitrax documentation which utterly fails to be clear when it is specifying hex or decimal. There is one table that is just plain dead wrong. Most of the tables in the book are in hex, but with the DT400 you can input the values in hex or decimal. Whenever I've complained about this on the Digitrax group, I'm told I don't understand hex, which is preposterous. I can speak any of these languages as long as I know which one is being spoken. If I see the value "B3" I know it's hex, but "33" could be either, and many of the examples in the books wander all over the place.

I think if I ever had the patience to write an actual usable manual for Digitrax -- STARTING with the exact procedure for selecting a locomotive on the DT100 - I could get rich. I just don't think I have that much patience. What's a million bucks for a stroke.

Digitrax makes a pretty decent product. Their documentation is abominable, and hasn't improved. Their web site, rather than having a master document for each decoder family, has amended their old one for the 163 series, injecting many contradictions and footnotes. And curse Adobe and PDF... what is wrong with HTML I'll never know, PDF is just a way to make it harder to search a document.

That Digitrax can remain popular, well regarded, and profitable in light of such poor communication is a testament to the quality of their product. The system *is* complex, but not near as complex as you might believe after reading a few pages of their published balderdash.

Andy

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I would just fire up JMRI on the laptop and do a little function remapping

-Hudson

With Digitrax you can choose to go to zero speed when released. I have my system set up to do that just because sometimes a loco that is stopped, but not at zero speed will get released. Often, later, it will creep.

There are two throttles on the Digitrax controller, each of which is capable of controlling a loco independently. The DT-400 throttle is a dream. I love mine. Each throttle will hold a stack and remembeer the last locos assigned to it. To go through the stack you merely push down on the throttle speed controller one click ( like a mouse) hold it for one second and it scrolls through the stack. to go through the stack click again and again until you get to the number you want. Keep clicking to get back to the beginning number. To change direction, click the throttle two times, like double-clicking the mouse. Complete one-handed operation of the DT-400 is a snap. ........F>

On Sun, 21 Dec 2003 22:44:50 UTC, snipped-for-privacy@notmail.com (Andy Harman) wrote: 2000

IIRC even after the throttle is purged you reclaim everything as soon as you move the knob. I haven't run my Digitrax system for months so I could be wrong. I will have to relearn my DT100 using the execrable documentation. OTOH although I find NCE using the simple throttles to be quite easy I am still underwhelmed.

Standard equipment with the radio throttles is a throttle cord so that the engines can be acquired. It is normal to be unable to acquire via the radio link. Once acquired the engines run well although I find it a bit annoying to have to reactivate the throttle after you have been running at constant speed for a couple of minutes. We are using the simple throttles, not the TV remote.

I find both Digitrax and NCE to be amateur city when it comes to human engineering and documentation although Digitrax seems to have set a new standard in documentation. Unfortunately the benefits of DCC make it necessary to put up with the crap.

Lets see, Digitrax can't be troubled to rewrite their manuals into a readable form, not even when they have completely redesigned their current generation decoder, yet I'm supposed to go find a $1500 laptop and probably buy some additional software too? And I bet it still doesn't work.

Andy

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Sometimes. In radio mode, sometimes I'm just gone - can't do anything until I plug in.

What I need is to assemble some cheat sheets. The procedure for setting the 163 to non-directional headlights is truly bizarre. The documented procedure for the older decoders works if you ignore half of it. Specifically the settings for CV48/49, which imply they affect directionality. Basically if you do those settings the headlight is effectively disabled. For a 140/142 series, you need to set CV61=1, and that's implied for the 163 but the 163 requires yet one more setting. I don't remember if CV61 is necessary or not, but it ain't the only thing.

Andy

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doesn't work. <

Andy, You obviously haven't looked at JMRI (DecoderPro) as to start with it's free. However the laptop still costs $1500 which is why I don't have one.

Andy Harman wrote: [snip]

[snip]

Amen.

As much as I like my Digitrax equipment, I really think that they need to start over from scratch on the manuals. The documentation makes it seem a lot harder to use than it actually is.

In addition to clearing up some of the number base confusion, I too wish that they would either re-organize it to make it easier to locate individual answers to questions ("How do I reset the throttle to run that locomotive that only supports 14 speed steps?"), or provide a second volume that's a FAQ that would serve the same purpose.

I've also thought about writing up a FAQ book myself (I used to write end-user documentation for a living), but I doubt that the return I'd get would justify giving up the amount of my hobby time that I'd have to sacrifice.

-fm Webmaster, Rails on Wheels, Washtenaw County, Michigan's HO Modular Club, at

The address in the header of this message is deliberately bogus to foil address-harvesters. See my web sites for my real address.

You don't need a laptop. All you need is a cable to connect your computer to the command station (for NCE). The computer would also need to be in the same room as the railroad so that you can see the engine in action.

Based on the most recent string of replies, it certainly appears that both NCE and Digitrax have a solid foundation in place, however they also appear to have a number of [performance / documentation / feature] issues and desired improvements to address in their next round of implementations and/or product offerings.

With this as our premise,

1) Do both companies appear to be healthy enough to continue with ungrades, etc.?

2) Does either company appear to be moving toward a new hand held, or will we see the same ones [their best version] on the market for quite some time?

3) Would NCE ever consider a duel know hand held to acquire the advantages Digitrax is enjoying with that design?

4) How does each company [historiically] respond to user feedback such as the thread we have here [being that there have been many, well stated, indirect, suggestions for improvements and changes to both company's equipment and/or software?