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"C> From time to time I see pictures and articles of model?? railroads large "C> enough to ride on. Where can I find information on buying any of this. "C> Mostly the rail, who sells that?

Here are a couple of starting points that I have bookmarked:

"C> "C> Tim "C> "C> "C>

\/ Robert Heller ||InterNet: snipped-for-privacy@cs.umass.edu

You can do a Google search on live steam and wade through a few million hits.

Probably the quickest way to find rail suppliers would be to get a copy of Live Steam Magazine and look through the ads. There aren't too many suppliers, but you should be able to find something.

Generally you're looking at 7 1/4" gauge (or in the west, 7 1/2" gague) stuff. There are several suppliers of loco kits, both steam and diesel, as well as track components. Needless to say, you're going to be be doing a lot of work laying the track as you have to build all of that from basic rail and frog castings. If you're building a railroad, a supply of 2x2s that are cheap (cutoffs from a home building site?) is almost a necessity. The steam engines are real steam powered locos while the diesels are usually

-- Why isn't there an Ozone Hole at the NORTH Pole?

If I still lived in Worcester I sure would, but I'm in SW Florida

"C> If I still lived in Worcester I sure would, but I'm in SW Florida

Still, a one time trip north might be worth it. Much of the large scale / live steam stuff is NOT over-the-counter, like the smaller scales. Much is hand made. If you are seriously into getting into this sort of thing, it would likely be very worthwhile to talk with the Live Steamers and get some pointers on what to get, what NOT to get and where to get it. Given the sorts of price tags some of the equipment commands (locomotives can cost upwards of $5,000), it is very much worth a trip north...

"C> > "C> From time to time I see pictures and articles of model?? railroads "C> > large "C> > "C> enough to ride on. Where can I find information on buying any of this. "C> > "C> Mostly the rail, who sells that? "C> >

"C> > Here are a couple of starting points that I have bookmarked: "C> >

"C> >

"C> > (The Pioneer Valley Live Steamers *always* have a display at the big "C> > Model Railroad Show at the Big E in West Springfield, MA every year "C> > (last weekend of Jan/first weekend of Feb) -- it might make sense to "C> > come to this show and talk with them.) "C> >

"C> > "C>

"C> > "C> Tim "C> > "C>

"C> > "C>

"C> > "C>

"C> >

"C> > \/ "C> > Robert Heller ||InterNet: snipped-for-privacy@cs.umass.edu "C> >

"C> >

"C> >

"C> >

"C> >

"C> >

"C> > "C> "C> "C>

\/ Robert Heller ||InterNet: snipped-for-privacy@cs.umass.edu

Try more like "upwards of $20,000" for live steam locos in running condition. $5K would be a bargain for a nice mid-sized live steamer in good shape (certified boiler, etc.). Sure, some of the smaller or older models are cheaper. UNcertified boilers are cheaper. Kits are cheaper. Scratchbuilding is fairly common with these models ... that's cheaper still ... IF you already have a machine shop available and are NOT in a hurry.

Try attending one of the several Model Engineering" shows around the country for ideas. There's the biggest of the bunch in the Detroit area this weekend ... North American Model Engineering Society ("N.A.M.E.S."). Others are "Cabin Fever" and N.E.M.E.S. While these emphasize stationary steam, there are usually a bunch of RR models included. These are fabulous shows. More hours of skilled human endeavor you will hardly ever find in one place.

... Even HO brass locomotives are pushing $3000 nowadays.

Dan Mitchell ============

Start here:

"AM> Robert Heller wrote: "AM> "AM> > "Tim Coyle" , "AM> > In a message on Thu, 21 Apr 2005 16:21:02 GMT, wrote : "AM> > "AM> > (locomotives can cost upwards of $5,000), it is very much worth a trip "AM> > north... "AM> >

"AM> "AM> Try more like "upwards of $20,000" for live steam locos in running "AM> condition. $5K would be a bargain for a nice mid-sized live steamer in "AM> good shape (certified boiler, etc.). Sure, some of the smaller or older "AM> models are cheaper. UNcertified boilers are cheaper. Kits are cheaper. "AM> Scratchbuilding is fairly common with these models ... that's cheaper "AM> still ... IF you already have a machine shop available and are NOT in a "AM> hurry.

I believe you can get a battery-powered 'diesel' locomotive for $6K

Yes, but one can buy a complete 'starter' kit (with a decent Athearn 'blue box' type locomotive and cars) for under $200. Not too major an investment to 'try it out'.

"AM> "AM> Dan Mitchell "AM> ============ "AM> "AM> "AM>

\/ Robert Heller ||InterNet: snipped-for-privacy@cs.umass.edu

That's likely true, but I was talking STEAM locos. The comment I was replying to was: "locomotives can cost upwards of $5,000" ... that means the $5K is nearly an upper limit on the cost ... actually, it's more like a LOWER limit on the cost of a completed loco.

The $5K figure may indeed be a reasonable price for a mid-range internal combustion model. But, $5K is a bargain for even a small steamer in the

Dan Mitchell ============

"AM> Robert Heller wrote: "AM> > "Daniel A. Mitchell" , In a message on Thu, 21 "AM> > Apr 2005 16:55:43 -0400, wrote : "AM> > "AM> > "AM> Robert Heller wrote: "AM> "AM> > "Tim Coyle" "AM> > , "AM> > In a message on Thu, 21 Apr "AM> > 2005 16:21:02 GMT, wrote : "AM> > "AM> > (locomotives can cost "AM> > upwards of $5,000), it is very much worth a trip "AM> > north... "AM>

"AM> > > "AM> "AM> Try more like "upwards of $20,000" for live steam locos "AM> > in running "AM> condition. $5K would be a bargain for a nice "AM> > mid-sized live steamer in "AM> good shape (certified boiler, etc.). "AM> > Sure, some of the smaller or older "AM> models are cheaper. "AM> > UNcertified boilers are cheaper. Kits are cheaper. "AM>

"AM> > Scratchbuilding is fairly common with these models ... that's cheaper "AM> > "AM> still ... IF you already have a machine shop available and are "AM> > NOT in a "AM> hurry. "AM> > "AM> > I believe you can get a battery-powered 'diesel' locomotive for $6K "AM> >

I guess I was not clear. I meant that prices for 'model train locomotives that you can ride' *start* at something like $5K and go up from there. *I* consider the term 'locomotive' (unspecified) includes diesels as well as steam. I know, there are probably 'purists' out there that frown on the use of battery powered diesel form factor locos on a large scale 'live steam' type layout.

"AM> "AM> The $5K figure may indeed be a reasonable price for a mid-range internal "AM> combustion model. But, $5K is a bargain for even a small steamer in the "AM> 7.5" gauge size range. "AM> "AM> Dan Mitchell "AM> ============ "AM> "AM> "AM> > "AM> "AM> Try attending one of the several Model Engineering" shows "AM> > around the "AM> country for ideas. There's the biggest of the bunch "AM> > in the Detroit area "AM> this weekend ... North American Model "AM> > Engineering Society "AM> ("N.A.M.E.S."). Others are "Cabin Fever" and "AM> > N.E.M.E.S. While these "AM> emphasize stationary steam, there are "AM> > usually a bunch of RR models "AM> included. These are fabulous shows. "AM> > More hours of skilled human endeavor "AM> you will hardly ever find "AM> > in one place. "AM> "AM> ... Even HO brass locomotives are pushing "AM> > $3000 nowadays. "AM> > "AM> > Yes, but one can buy a complete 'starter' kit (with a decent Athearn "AM> > 'blue box' type locomotive and cars) for under $200. Not too major "AM> > an investment to 'try it out'. "AM> > "AM> > "AM> "AM> Dan Mitchell "AM> ============ "AM> "AM> "AM>

"AM> > "AM> > "AM> > \/ Robert Heller ||InterNet: "AM> > snipped-for-privacy@cs.umass.edu

\/ Robert Heller ||InterNet: snipped-for-privacy@cs.umass.edu

Had you still lived in Worcester, you'd have been closer to the Waushakum Live Steamers. Since you're in Florida take a look at the Florida Live Steamers:

I ran across a bunch of gauge 1 live steamers in the Fort Myers area a few years ago. While they ran small stuff, they had connections to people who ran bigger trains. Once you find a live steamer, you'll be able to make all sorts of contacts.

Daniel A. Mitchell wrote: [...]

Er, Daniel, "upwards of X" means that X is the lower limit. If upper limit were meant, the OP would have written "up to $5,000".

HTH

It's a semantics problem.

I've ALWAYS heard this term used as meaning 'up to'. Meaning, from zero TO near the stated value. An UPPER limit. That is, "OF" meaning "towards", NOT meaning "FROM".

I agree the word "OF" here is confusing, and should be either "to" or "from". Upwards FROM has indeed a whole different meaning. People may well (and obviously do) use this whole term in differing ways.

Dan Mitchell ============

The use of symbols to connotate truth or falsehood ... YUP definately semantics.

The term "upwards of" pretty clearly is being used to mean above (lower limit).

"Downwards from" would mean below (upper limit).

Paul

Usage, actually. Ie, your dialect uses the phrases differently.

That's very interesting, since I have _never_ heard or read it in this sense. You're the first example of. :-) What part of the country are you from? (I note you're with U of Much at Flint, but that doesn't mean much, since you may have learned your native tongue in another poart of the country.)

Yes, there does seem to be a propblem with "of" and "from" in different varieties of American English. I note that in NY "from" is sometimes used to mean "of" - probably the influence of Yiddish, in which "von" means both "of" and "from" depending on context (This is a feature of German; Yiddish is a German dialect with many Hebrew words and some Hebrew syntax.)

Hey where is the Waushakum Live Steamers? I remember stay at the Boy's Club camp on Lake Waushakum

Tim

I don't know where Lake Waushakum is, but the live steamers are now in Holliston, MA. Here's a website: