"O" scale or "HO" scale

Spender wrote in news: snipped-for-privacy@news.easynews.com:

In a way, calling models "toys" belittles them. That piece of string you found on the ground is a toy. A rattle is a toy. I have put some real effort into building my models, I've drawn plausible track plans, I've observed and watched for details to model, I just can't see use of the word "toy." You cannot plunk down a $20 bill at the LHS and get what I have.

I guess calling models "toys" denies the modeler the emotions associated with the model. The modeler has taken the time to choose their models, and by modifying it made it their own. Calling something a toy implies something replaceable. If my toy car breaks, I can get a new one. If my model boxcar breaks, if I get a new one it won't be the same.

One thing that is important to realize, however, is that model trains are in many ways toys. They are best enjoyed as you play with them, not as you look at them in their box.

This might have been a bit of a rant, but I hope I sufficiently put in to words how I feel about this subject, and maybe have provided some of the less articulate a way to express their feelings.

Puckdropper

While I agree that S scale is a good scale, I disagree on the "extremely durable high-quality" aspect of American Flyer postwar products. At my neighbor's house, I spent a about 4 years operating weekly on an AF layout. Motive power was 4x GP's, 1x EP-5, 1x S-12, 1x 0-8-0, 2x 4-6-2, 1x 4-8-4, 2x PA-1, 1x PB-1, and 1x Track Speeder. There were approx. 20 passenger cars, and over 50 freight cars. Track was a mix of AF and Gar Graves, and power supplies and throttles were all AF originals. In my experience, my modern HO collection is far more durable and of higher quality than any AF stock. For example, I've never broken a coupler in HO scale unless I dropped a loco on the floor and it landed on the Kadee. I have, in fact, broken a couple AF couplers in normal use (knuckles, not the drop hooks). My neighbor also had a weighted stick that he'd use to whack certain locos to get them to change directions as the reverser in these locos needed a little help to turn over. I also rebuilt a couple of these drum switches for him by buying new parts as needed. I've never had to whack a loco with a stick in HO scale to get it to run. These locos needed constant maintenance to continue to run well. I'm sorry, but I just don't see what was "extremely durable" & "high quality" about them. Lionel, yes, I can see that. But AF? Not in my experience.

Paul A. Cutler III

************* Weather Or No Go New Haven *************

True, but most of what they make for O gauge isn't 1:48 scale. It's adapted to not fall off the tight curves.

OK, if you want to see it that way. The main criterion is: is it two-rail or three rail? Many scale models are offered in 3-rail versions.

I don't object. I just like to be precise. I like tinplate, BTW - those big trains make such a wonderful racket. ;-) But it's not scale modelling.

Ah, we all play with trains, whether we just watch 'em run or whether we simulate real railroad operation.

There is a difference between people who build railroad models, and people who model railroads. The former focus on scale, accurate detail, correct paint, etc. The latter focus on running trains, more or less like the real thing. The round'n'round guy is simulating train watching, a premier sport IMO. ;-) Prototype operation is a role playing game. Most people who play with trains locate themselves somewhere in the middle of these various options. They do a little bit of everything, with the aim of having fun. And sharing it. It's the ones at the extremes who cause most of the grief -- they want to believe that theirs is the only true path to enlightenment.

make are scale models.< I don't believe that to be true however I have never measured their products so don't know for sure. It does appear in pictures however that their larger engines are not very close to O scale. If they were there is no way they could be made to run on the radius of track they currently run on.

That's true. However I think someone pointed out a while back that even HO and N layouts have grossly unrealistic curves that no prototype could actually negotiate.

I'm not an expert, but from what I understand the compromise with O gauge is in the way the trucks are articulated. The body of a loco may be to scale, and well detailed, but its trucks are articulated to an unrealistic degree which allows them to negotiate an O-27 curve. Sometimes that just isn't possible and a higher curve radius is necessary if the body is built to scale. The really big Lionel and MTH locos require an O-72 curve.

That shouldn't be hard to figure out. There are, or were, people here who drive real trains. They might know, for example, what is the smallest scale curve a real SD-40-2 loco could negotiate.

I have a couple of MTH 75' Auto Carriers that are 20" long from coupler to coupler. That is almost precisely 1:43 scale. They can negotiate O-36 track which, I believe, is anything but realistic as far as what the prototype would be able to do. Actually it's pretty amusing watching how far the body hangs off the track on a tight curve. I can't help but feel bad for anybody that was just standing at the curve watching the train go by when that car comes along.

That's why I bought some 1:43 scale ambulances for the layout. Just because a guy only 1.6" tall is stupid enough to stand that close to the tracks doesn't mean he deserves to die.

But you obviously know a lot more than I do about scale. Personally scale isn't that important to me. Nearly scale is close enough since I derive pleasure from operating the trains more than measuring them. I don't mean that to sound as though I believe people who insist on exact scale are anal retentive or anything. If someone wants exact scale, then that's what they want.

I'm not sure what you mean here. When I was talking about tinplate being a specific area, I was still talking about three rail trains. For example. MTH's Tinplate Traditions. They clearly look more toy-like and they are meant to since they are designed in the fashion of early model trains when scale wasn't important to anybody.

I'm not simulating real railroad operations yet. Partly because I haven't built a permanent layout, but mostly because I can't bear taking responsibility for all the scale deaths that would have occurred already.

Even if a real railroad had an old beater train they could run, I'm assuming they would not allow a 17 month old to handle the throttle. "Um, honey... I said blow the whistle, not run the train off the tracks."

My goal is more towards modeling a railroad, but perhaps not in the manner that any real railroad would. I'd like to have four trains running simultaneously, with switching so I can run any train on any line. And a lot of sidings so I can pull trains off, and pull others out.

With 143' being roughly one 1:43 scale mile, it can never be realistic. Unless I happen to have the opportunity to buy an old jumbo jet hanger. But having to use a golf cart to get from one end of your layout to the other might ruin the fun.

I may be wrong, but I think the trick is in how the trucks are (unrealistically) articulated.

But it would be interesting to find out exactly how tight a curve a prototype SD-40 or 4-6-4 Hudson could actually negotiate. I wouldn't be surprised to find out that no O scale model is realistic in that regard.

I would draw a distinction between "little boy toys" and "big boy toys". (No offense to women, but men do seem to greatly outnumber women in this hobby.) Big boy toys are far more expensive and are usually handled with the greatest of care to assure they are not broken. Yet we still play with them.

I consider my Mustang GT to be a big boy toy, with no offense intended towards hard core grease-monkeys who see it as art and technology.

In the end it is all a matter of one's own perceptions. Perhaps the word toy is taken the wrong way. Maybe it would be better to distinguish between childs play and adult play. But even then, no matter how serious you get, there is a child-like aspect to it.

Well, walking on the moon is quite serious business also. But each of the twelve men who have done it took any time they could to play. Play itself is serious business. It doesn't appear that way when you watch a child play, but the child is learning. Adults also learn via playing.

That is correct. All model trains go around curves that are enormously tighter than anything the prototype can negotiate. Models are made to take tight curves to allow one to fit a layout into the kind of space most of us have for trains. All HO models are built to get around an

18" radius curve. Classic Lionel models could negotiate 15.5" radius (Lionel O gauge) or 13.5" radius curves (Lionel 027 gauge).

"Tinplate" is an older word meaning essentially Lionel, or Lionel compatable rolling stock running on three rail track under AC power. A lot of Lionel operators considered the term derogatory and the newer hobby publications tend to use the term "hirail". Lionel used to make a lot of true-to-scale equipment, and an equal amount of "selectively compressed" (i.e. short) equipment. Both sets of equipment were well made and good looking. O scale (as opposed to hirail) had closer to scale wheel flanges, two rail operation, and DC motors to permit reversing without messing with an E-unit. Three rail Lionel equipment won't run on two rail because the conductive metal wheels are mounted on conductive metal axles, which amount to a dead short on two rail track. Plus the stock Lionel wheel flanges are too deep to run on the lower O-scale track.

Excellent goal.

David Starr

Spender wrote in news: snipped-for-privacy@news.easynews.com:

I admit it, I call Menards "the toy store."

Art, technology... hm... sounds like the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles television. (Yes, television and not "TV show.")

*singing* I've been playing on the railroad, all the live-long day. I've been playing on the railroad to pass the time away...

Puckdropper

No. A couple of weeks back, I built a big wooden train for my son. I made it from a variety of scrap materials I had on hand, based it on no known prototype, then finished and painted it in a way I think he will find appealing. My son pushes it along the floor and chews it. That is a

*toy*.

I've also been working on an HO Niigata Kotsu box-motor for my Japanese layout. I made it from styrene, ABS, deal, etched brass, cast brass and nickel silver parts, some bought in, some made by me. I used drawings sourced from the original carbuilders, photos from contacts in Japan, and off the web. It's painted and weathered to accurately represent the prototype car shortly before it's withdrawal in 1991. That is a *model*.

I object to you presenting your opinion about other people's models as unequivocal fact. I object to the idea that I must adopt your definition of my models, and my hobby.

On another level, I object to the idea that something I built myself, using all of my skill and talent, is merely a toy.

When you yourself have built a model of your own, as opposed to merely buying one, you may be able to understand the distinction.

Mark.

(unrealistically) articulated.<

Current articulated models (like BLI and PCM, etc) have both the front and rear engine pivot around a center mounting point. Many modelers (myself included) call this the Riverossia(sp) curse . Is also does not allow attaching some of the piping that should be there.

If you're going to demand that 15" long models go around 15" radius curves then something has go to give! A four wheel Big-Boy is going to look even less realistic than pivoting the rear driver frame! ;-)

Regards, Greg.P.

Mark Newton spake thus:

[snip]

Well, you're both right (see my new firestarter thread below).

In the most generic sense, all this stuff falls into the category of "toys", as it's totally inessential to the sustenance of life, or even commerce.

On the other hand, it's completely understandable how a guy who's spent umpteen thousand hours laboriously drafting, machining and fabricating a down-to-the-last-rivet 1"=1' scale model of a steam locomotive might object, might even bristle a little, if someone called his creation a "toy". Even if it is ...

(By the way, on my recent visit to the Cal. State RR Museum, such models were the high points of what I saw. Gawgeous. You need to see them if you haven't.)

There must be variable meanings to the term. From what I've seen in Lionel and MTH catalogs, the term tinplate is used to refer specifically to trains intended to be toy-like - harkening back to the days of trains sets produced at a price level most any American family could afford. The couplers are even quite different, and incompatible, than standard O gauge.

This was quite helpful. I have seen MTH offerings of the same locomotive in both high-rail and scale wheeled versions. I hadn't taken the time to investigate what the difference was.

Interestingly, MTH produces some locos that are designed to be user adaptable to either three rail DC or two rail AC operation. Most of the ones I have looked at claim to be faithful 1:43 scale models.

I don't recall me having made any demand that you accept my opinion as fact.

"Merely" is the key word.

I'be built models of my own. Not trains, but cars and airplanes. They were toys, at least in the sense I would push them around or act like they were flying.

In my mind, a model with no function is art.

I had better stop doing that. I almost took off my kneecap with a sawzall last winter...

You made this statement in a previous post:

"Unless you are modeling something with the intention of creating a full scale version, all you are doing is making toys."

You did't qualify this by saying it was your opinion, did you?

Anyway, what you choose to call your tinplate trains hardly matters in the long run.

Has the concept of using a model as a toy been considered?

Is it a model if only the exterior is replicated, or does a model have to have the same sort of internal mechanism? Or is that a miniature?

I'd say that it's a model if it externally replicates the original. I'd also say that there's nothing which prevents me from using a model as a toy. (For me, "model" railroading is play.)

VBG.

I'm not sure, but I think "tinplate" originally referred to the Marx products and was used to describe products made from formed "tin" sheets with pictures of the original printed on them. MTH has a product line which they call tinplate. Some current Lionel products are also called tinplate.

The non-1:48 O guage may be called such things as scale, O-27, Lionel's "Lionmaster", and in some cases, "traditional". However, not all "traditional" is at the smaller scale.

Because of these variances, I'll generally just check the car lengths. For instance if a passenger car is 15 inches or less, I'll classify that as not being 1:48. There's just too much confusion caused by various manufacturers using different terms to do otherwise.

Carl

I don't own any tinplate trains. You might want to bone up on the meaning of the term.