What's up with all these duplicate releases???

=>Hey, all, =>

=> I've recently been checking out the latest new product info on =>

(All American Trains) and I'm boggled by the =>release strategies of the various manufacturers.

...snip the list...

Just a few rambling thoughts in response to the above...

If you look at the fine print on the boxes, you'll see that almost all of this stuff is made in China... so my guess is that the Chinese are merely custom producing slight variations to go in the different coloured boxes. Or maybe even renting the molds from each other so they can produce slight variations etc.

I do wonder though - do Atlas, etc do actual market surveys? Or do they just tabulate the requests they get in the mail, or the kvetching that appears in forums such as this one?

From a marketing p.o.v., you can get a quick turnover with "limited edition" product, which means fast return on capital, and hence ability to sell at a lower margin. But "open stock" such as Athearn's tradtional kits can sit on the shelf for months or even years, which means a retailer must keep margins relatively high on such product. But the discount mail-order houses regularly sell such product at not much above wholesale prices, just to keep the stuff moving -- and the retailer can't compete with that. The long range effect might well be that such bread-and-butter product disappears. FWIW, last week I was asked if Athearn would continue to produce its kits. I said AFAIK yes

-- but who knows?

I'm calling for Andy Harman's opinion on this one because it would take somebody with his knowledge to totally refute the above statement (he does run the diesel modelers list, after all). Personally, I find it hard to believe that any company would allow another to use its molds. Especially if they would both be in production in about the same time. I'm sure Andy could call out many differences between the new models of various engines coming out (which I hope he does; hint, hint) that would prove that they did not come from the same molds (no offense, Wolf). I just don't know enough about 'em...

Paul A. Cutler III

************** Weather Or No Go New Haven **************

Makes me thank God for a company like Stewart. How many types of Alcos would we have without them? A lot fewer.

Makes you wonder. Perhaps because these models are the best-selling? Because the other company makes one so we have to compete? Because theirs is aimed at a higher/lower market?

Jay Modeling the North Shore & North Western C&NW/CNS&M in 1940-1955 Due to spam, all e-mails except those from selected addresses will be refused. Thanks for your understanding.

I dunno. Does seem kind of peculiar...

"Rivarossi releases a new and improved Challenger (Yeah, a while back) Athearn is going to release a new Challenger"

The Rivarossi challenger while improved has inaccuracies. The Athearn will annilate it. [hopefully]

"Athearn has a GP-60 P2K releases a GP-60 (Okay, that's understandable) Athearn is going to release a new GP-60 (But is it going to be better?)"

Athearn bought out Rail Power Products which and a real GP-60 as opposed to Athearn's GP-50 with a -60 dynamic brake. Since they own better tooling they might as well use it.

"Atlas releases an excellent GP38 P2K is going to release some sort of GP-38"

Doesn't all the Atlas new SD/GP's have a dimensional problem that they refuse to fix? Thought it was mention on the newgroups a few years ago.

"What's up with that? Do these companies really want to invest thousands in tooling for items which won't necessarily be any better than the already existing competition?"

I think we've gotten to the point where modelers aren't willing to accept major flaws and a new product from a different manufacturer that addresses the shortcoming can muscle the inferior model out of market share.

Why buy wide hood Athearns 1st gens whe P2K has a better product?

Eric

Well.... one does not need to be an insider to know that there is really nothing like that going on. I suspect some occasional common parts in particular the motors, or gears, or U-joints but the shell tooling for all of these new models is new, and you need only take a close look at the models themselves for it to be obvious. Proto

2000's SD45 does not have so much as an eye bolt in common with Kato's SD45. Ditto the Athearn GP60 (either their old one or the redux of RPP) vs. the Proto 2000. Athearn will soon be releasing an SD50 which has exactly zero point zero common parts with the Proto 2000 SD60 (thank God). And so on. Now with a single manufacturer - such as Atlas - there are common components, like the EMD cab used on the GP38, GP40, and SD35 - although they corrected the roof line on the second run SD35 so there are now two versions. But you won't find that cab on Life-Like's SD45.

There have been a few "rebadge" jobs over the years, but they were never concealed. ConCor for instance had a special run of Proto 2000 FA2's done in "fantasy" paint schemes; Atlas did a special run of AEM7's for Walthers, ditto Athearn AMD103's... but this didn't involve any implied borrowing or duplication hanky-panky from the Chinese manufacturers. In some cases, they do over what they already have - like tooling up a compound gearbox for the P2K SD45 when the 14:1 straight gearing already present in their SD7 would have been the best choice.

Andy

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- Pre-Interstate Urban Archaeology

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Thanks, Andy. Every once and a while, we need to have the experts chime in and quash a rumor before they get started. :-) Next time you see John Sheridan, ask him about the Union Pacific lawsuit against Microscale. And before anybody else says anything, that whole nonsense started on the Atlas forum as a joke, and quickly became another internet rumor. But it did give Microscale a few interesting days trying to answer a flood of e-mails... ;-)

Thanks again, Andy.

Paul A. Cutler III

************* Weather Or No Go New Haven *************

I think the original post was about G scale trains not HO or N?

Not sure when I'll next see the Galactic Commander... possibly at Rosemont, if he's making the journey.

Andy

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He's going to Toronto, I know, but not as Microscale (obviously; that whole SARS thing kinda torpedoed that). It's ok, this way he doesn't have to set up that booth. :-) Then he's going out to CA to visit the "home planet" (aka Microscale) for consultations with Earth Dome (gratuitous B5 reference). ^_^ Next time I see "Captain" Sheridan, I'll tell him you said hi (and ask him about Rosemont)...

Paul A. Cutler III

************* Weather Or No Go New Haven *************

But are they going to do a proper NP/GN version or just reletter the UP one?

Are they going to offer the UP ones in both coal and oil and with the different tenders?

Sanda Kan Industrial Ltd does most of Atlas current production. However, Atlas uses Matchbox Agency Ltd, Japan as a broker for placing production. (Both Kan and Matchbox are credited on the Atlas site relative to the Spirit Project) The new VO-1000 [N] came out of Korea. A comment a couple years ago on Atlas Forum by Tom Haedrich was that Atlas has used (Matchbox) as their only broker for decades.

CTucker NY

Interesting. Probably the same broker that hooked them up with Kato back in the 1980's. Never knew that... I guess I need to read the Atlas forum once in a while. I'm sure the conversation has stepped up in the last couple of days.

Andy

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- Pre-Interstate Urban Archaeology

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The U30 was a surprise - a /big surprise/ to newer folks on the forum. A persistent bunch of us have been asking for several years. Three folks went ballistic and predicted the end of the universe since Atlas was making a model of an obsolete locomotive all of which went to scrap. (/facts/ and contrary photos were of no interest to these fellows!) Most folks were quite surprised and busy thinking about what use could be made of the locomotives, as is, or as parts. Pretty much the same sort of conversations as taking place on dList.

CTucker NY

These factories are in the Hong Kong area and have been in the plastic toy business for decades. Never say "never," but it isn't very likely that they would act any differently from English or USA companies.

CTucker NY

"Just because they are Chinese doesn't mean they are unethical, or poor businessmen. The opportunity exists to do this, but it would not be good for business. Getting sued never is. The track record is that these manufacturers are in it for the long haul, and want to keep doing what they are doing."

Well I agree being Chinese doesn't make one unethical or poor businessmen. How would one deal with legal disputes there? From my understanding to have business opportunities there one has to be/connected to someone in the party/government/military. It seems like that would be obstacle to having a complaint addressed fairly unless they wanted to do so.

I always wonder why we isist on manufacturing stuff there. Wouldn't India, the Phillipines or some of the other asian nations be a better choice.

"They are not the manufacturers producing and selling excess product, they are simply pirating what they get their hands on. Any kid with a CD burner can pirate software; that same kid can't tool a duplicate of an Atlas GP40 for free."

I was under the ompression that they were being burned there by the Chinese under contract and they were running off more than they were contracted to make and then dumping into the market at the real thing.

"This is the bootlegging scenario you described above. It has happened, but it's not a regular thing. I don't remember what the outcome was, but I imagine the manufacturer seriously violated their contract by producing and selling extra product on the side."

I was reading a serial article in O scale trains magazine by a brass importer. He mentioned about being offered a run of locomotives based on the tooling of a previous customer's run by a Korean manufacturer.

Eric

I guess the fact that so much manufacturing for the USA market is now being done in China, indicates those obstacles have been removed. The Chinese government wants the business, no doubt about it.

So far the Chinese have shown a lot of skill for a very low price. Its possible that other countries may compete with them soon. Japan was the first Asian country to get noticed for quality, 45-50 years ago. Then it became too expensive, and then it was Taiwan, Hong Kong, and South Korea. Now it's Singapore, Mainland China... and India, Pakistan, Indonesia... it's very competitive. It just seems that right now the skills and experience for cranking out finished, detailed, fairly high quality model railroad products are in China.

That's also a likely scenario... I thought most of the piracy in the Chinese market was within China itself, but if they are selling it bootleg back to the states... well, someone whose initials are BG might be upset :-)

I remember that one... I am not sure if its the first time it has happened, but it was the first time it was publicized.

Andy

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- Pre-Interstate Urban Archaeology

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